Meeting Notes 2007 12 04
These are notes from different people who attended the 4 December 2007 noisebridge meeting.
This is based on dave's notes :)
Discussion of objectives for noisebridge space
Understand people's goals for space Review Bill's Space Ideas of other spaces to check out as possibilities
Buy Buiding vs. Rent Space should be open - walk in and chat Clubhouse is conditional use - must be approved by the city. Want to make it public. noisebridge is a safe space Exhibits and shows like 20 GOTO 10 If found a space like PNA, would have it made (other places mentioned CCC, and NYC) Need core group willing to make a financial commitment Minimal politics Bill's Space - rent for about $2K, b/c full floor - require $150 - $180 /month if 17 people - NoStarch doesn't move in until April - NON-PROFIT STATUS? - Kewl space Art & technolgy combo
* didn't see any from notes below :) was there any?
Shelved Topics None
Right now there's just David's notes, but you can add your own.
David Molnar notes (unedited, probably do not reflect exactly what was said, fix or yell at me. All errors mine.)
(Notes begin midway through meeting, when someone mentioned that we didn't have anyone taking notes yet. The meeting opened with introductions + short statements of what we each want to get out of the noisebridge space. Bill then introduced himself as the owner of No Starch Press, and told us about the new building he has just bought. While the building needs significant cleaning up, and while the business still needs to move in, there will be space left over, and this space could be a home for noisebridge.)
(context: discussion of the space and what we would need to do) Jake: Have insurance - most trustworthy person can have accidents Adding a fireman's pole to go from 2nd floor to garage - that kind of thing can be done by space members
Seth: My father bought a fire station. Firemen removed pole as fire hazard. <everyone laughs> Having opening between floors violates fire code.
Bill: No connection between 2nd and garage. Setback with potential stairs. Put deck out there. Never owned building before, don't know if this is 10K or 100K. Great to have hardware hacking space in the basement - can paint basement or put in benches, put door in, etc. These are all things that can be solved by walking through and thinking creatively. I will make ultimate decision based on peoples' inputs when it comes to building b/c building is big investment. Overriding concern is that staff is happy. Space should be open - walk in and chat.
Alex: Great to have space open and friendly to people who wouldn't necessarily find themselves into a hack
lab. Be open to a lot of different stuff.
Bill: All of our authors are hackers. Nice that you could have stairs in back. Lock the office at night. Have wired network. "We're scary hackers, but your network is safe." Clubhouse is conditional use - must be approved by the city. Want to make it public.
Andy: Exhibits and shows.
Bill: 20 GOTO 10. Chris Abad. Place for shows.
Jake: 20 GOTO 10 is small. Important that noisebridge is a safe space. Important to not give people hard time, own each others' machines, etc. Attempts at US mostly avoid it, except for public n3rd area. Payphone installed b/c public space. Payphone hack.
David: Love public n3rd area. Weather balloon hack. If we have that space we won.
Jake: Interesting thing abut pna, very different. CCC is lots of people. pna is four core people, each of them pay $500 month. one person lives there. New Hack City was here, died because someone lived there.
Neva: Not going to tell that story. Great to have lack of politics here.
Jake: No feeling of hanging out in someone else's living room. Important that we talk about community that exists outside of spaces. Free software community.
Jake: The thing that's great is finding a space and putting it together. "I have a dream" that when things need to be done, then we'll pull together and do stuff. Never will there be a permanent authority that orders people around and speaks for everyone. Think we should have financial commitment, or work in lieu of. Also have a core group of committed people. We need to bring in value of $2000, but not by just bringing in an oscilloscope and saying "look, this cost $17000 and that's months of rent." Shouldn't be able to join the group unless you have a good vibe. Good relationship with Bill, but also businesslike relationship with Bill. If know true costs of the space, can calculate what's needed. Can calculate variable contributions.
Bill: We also can pay for tech reviews. If people want to write something, we can barter for that too. If people want to put that toward something we can do it. Mugs - PERL mug, Google mug. Value to us in doing that kind of thing. Maybe T-shirts, and certain amount go to the hacker space? Ways to do this creatively.
Rachel: How much rent would you be asking?
Bill: Need to measure. Buck and a quarter to a buck and a half per square foot.
Rachel: OK. Just looking for idea.
Bill: Probably rent for about $2K, b/c full floor. Not unreasonable, but also take into account improvements. Look at space, figure out what's fair
Mark: $150 - $180 /month if 17 people
Jake: We should make sure we are fiscally responsible and can pay for our stuff ourselves. Connection can help us become 501(c)(3). Can't get to 501(c)(3) until after we have space, board, etc. Would be benefit, but need to function independently first.
Bill: Important to have corporation. Maybe hacker space grows, then want it to be portable. Need to have independence from NoStarch. My thing with the space is -- NoStarch doesn't move in until April, but could start working on it early. Maybe small amount of work early? form the nonprofit, have people join and pay into it early on? Not just show up, have vested interest in it.
Rachel: Forgive me if put you on the spot: what if we don't have nonprofit immediately, will you rent to individuals?
Bill: Yes. Favorable for me. Prefer not to have random business in there.
Mark: Can have time and ideas into improving the space between now and april. Once established, can deal.
Jsk: When do you have the key?
Bill: Thursday or Friday at the latest. They have _all_ my money. 1900 sqft total locked size.
If law comes down, they'll close the hacker space. Make it separate, but public. Hackers not evil people, important to have advertising and signup. Planning department guy is totally cool. Have coffee kiosk that is open to the neighborhood a possibility in future? Like blue bottle - kids could be safe there, 10 or 12 year olds that could be part of this community, with adult supervision.
Jake: No one here wants to burn the space or make into a drug lab.
Luis: Hi I'm Luis. I really don't want to make it into a drug lab. Was part of new hack city 99-2000. Disintegrated, disorganization, people not paying rent. Not sure if I will be part of another space. Make sure people have jobs, have commitments, all commitments in the open and written down.
Bill: Won't be an evil evicting landlord.
Jake: Most people here have jobs. Contributing to the community is more important. If we decide to become some formal organization, then can go for grants. San Francisco may want to contribute money to the arts.
erinn: They might if we have homeless people in it.
Jake: We should start working, things will happen in an organic manner. Someone's going to run a tor server, blimp stuff, etc. First thing to decide on - conflict resolution process. Nothing to worry about since people are all on the same page. We all hack the planet together.
Seth: Just imagining someone running after a blimp with a pirate radio station...
David: Don't forget the mesh AP for SF LAN.
Jake: Like the idea of having a space for a bunch of activists to come in and learn more about computer security. Ability to speak out w/o being oppressed important. 10-20 people, "hey let's give a talk about Tor." Want to break out of the bedroom/
Bill: Chemistry experiments mixed feelings.
Seth: Interesting question about safety from experiments. HF, radioisotopes, etc. Fire arts could also be issue. Experiments involve risk.
Mark: Understanding personal safety.
Jake: Insurance. If we do fire arts, need insurance for fire arts and need Bill to be OK with it. "Please don't burn the place down. Please don't pick our locks. Please don't own our networks." There are places to go for fire arts other than this space anyway.
Rachel: In what context might we be representing the group?
Rachel: Basically everyone will be representing the group.
Jsk: You have to say "this is my opinion"
Rachel: That's not going to take.
Jsk: Don't say "we at blah blah think this" because "we" don't.
Jake: Example - someone says 'hacking all about breaking into things.'
Jsk: Saab computer club in 70s - was secretary of the club. was a bit formal. Journalist wanted to come and speak about hackers breaking into university network. 'I have 5 people who can meet you.' When it came to donations, the university had visit from Sun vice president. VP says "we will send you a bunch of sun 3s or sun 2s" main place for donated/returned machines. Never had any strings attached.
Bill: Maybe list sponsors or donors. Debian - donate hardware, maybe they remember you and put on page.
Jake: Sure, maybe someone wants to do Debian mirror, or counterbalance weights for blimp communities. Build it with intention of sharing it with people outside out community. Bridging other ideas together - get people to connect through art, can bridge other ways as well. Requires that no one is a leader, except for a temporary leader. Don't want it to be a cult. CCC slides talk about this, important that people with authority have it only for purpose and not just to be bigshot.
Mark: "sudo leadership"
Rachel: "I like that"
Jake: Don't want cards.
David: Door cards are blank.
David: 2D barcodes.
Jsk: Mitch Altman couldn't come, but also expressed concern about membership. Need to have trust.
Ruben: Interpretive arson, have a space in west oakland. Warehouse called NIMBY. Industrial art space. Three large shipping containers. Oxy torch to cut together. Space shared with 10 or 11 other folks.
Seth: Did that have zoning problems?
Ruben: No, we're fairly good with city of oakland. Across street is condos. Entire area is industrial. NIMBY makes money through parties and leasing space. Actually had cops say condo people annoyed, but industrial zoning means can't do much. Fire department has said "no more people allowed in building" at some parties. Rent is done based on how much space you use. When I got the boot from previous owner, sent out email saying "hey, mind if I don't pay for the next few months?" Rest of people were OK with it. Small number of people it's easy to do that. Not sure how big this thing will get.
Could be more like - "how much do you plan to do here?"
Web of trust. Containers has problem that people get started, then have lock on bench space. More of an issue that they need to keep area clean, avoid leaving things out for weeks.
Bill: Great at CCC was that laptops were everywhere. No laptops stolen.
Jake: Actually laptop was stolen.
Bill: Don't like people owning space.
David: Great concern - important to have norms about who to call first, how to move stuff to storage.
Jake: Tube system for people who miss BART. Project buckets. Bin systems.
Rachel: If I really need a 555 chip, then can borrow it.
Ruben: Don't think you're going to have a problem with people wanting to party. At NIMBY, issue is that the guy who runs the space forces party out from under it. Artists want _stable_ space. Honestly don't think they will be trashing it.
Bill: Sure, starts with people committed to the idea to the space. Important to get the idea across this is shared space. American CCC camp thing is not so good.
Jake: Yes - notion of property. Can't sit in my chair, etc. Way to approach Rachel's concerns - have communal order for electronics parts. Important not to have locks on things. Should have stuff we can all share.
Michael: Good faith is the statement that matters.
Ruben: Checkout wiki.
Jake: Noisebridge wiki checks out distributed library project. Anarchist method for sharing books.
Rachel: A lot of overhead.
Michael: Use barcode scanner.
David: Think I have an extra one.
Bill: Night is OK. Could put bike rack in garage. Costco parking lot.
Erinn: Public transportation runs by there too.
Audrey: Needs to be secure.
Michael: Could have different pay by the month or pay by the hour.
Jake: There's value in that, and metalab and (REICO??) does something like that. Pay dues. Metalab experience for hacker-in-residence was that art was the contribution. Shouldn't turn it into a monetized relationship with a service mentality.
Michael: Suggestion was aimed at people who aren't employed currently. The can, "throw something in the can."
Jake: Yes, have way for people to put money in.
Rachel: Will deal with this later.
erinn: My experience with large communities that are anarchist in nature and have people that fuck up the general vibe - a lot of people have a problem with ostracism. That <not excluding> actually tends to be worse. It's a very hard problem. Can't be cavalier about it, but hard to not get bogged down in a process. It's probably better to be willing to get rid of people.
Rachel: More like people leave because they don't want to be around the one person.
Erinn: It's different in real life than it is online. Online, they stop posting to mailing lists. In person, the tension is a lot more obvious. It might play out differently, but that's my main concern.
Jake: There will be people that contribute only money. That's a problem as well. Important that people contribute as well. Money is not the most important thing here. Lucky that Bill has a space that we could move in without huge money problem.
Erinn: I think that one of the qualifiers you had for inviting people is that you invited people that get shit done. We can all list accomplishments. We do things. As long as we can use that as a basis for being a member, then we'll be OK.
Jake: If there's someone who comes and never does anything, not necessarily negative.
Rachel: Person sitting on the sofa and expect /demand people bring me food, give backrubs, etc. that's different.
Mark: That should sort itself out - person will notice that they aren't wanted.
[ Discussion of how we don't want people to be exclusive or to turn into DEF CON]
Jake: Good to facilitate minorities and gender balance. Want to avoid that. Sponsorship can be a way to get people inside the space who are cool.
Jake: Don't want to store records.
Rachel: What about who forgot to pay rent this month?
Jsk: Automatic payments?
Rachel: Work better if time to pay.
Bill: Can use PayPal.
Rachel: Put your ideas on the wiki, we'll have another meeting in a week.
Bill: Does anyone want to go in on the vacant lot?
Jake: Talk on the mailing list, put stuff on wiki.
Jake: Don't want to log things in #noisebridge.
David: You know I'm taking notes about this conversation?
Andy: Bot keeps hour window. Anyone can say "put it on the wiki".
Michael: Add a "Channel is monitored right now" warning.
Andy: Benefit of a trailing window - realize afterwards useful to log.
Jake: Difference between logging and googleable.
Michael: Answer is that shouldn't be the default. As long as way of working around, OK.
Jake: Have domains. Don't care about subdomains. Don't want to set up anything @noisebridge.net directly to point to peoples' e-mail. Avoid scenario where mediawiki gets owned and people start getting their mail addresses read.
Andy: Tell bot to check out and update from your mecurial/git repository.
David: Have a betabot. Grenade timer.
Jake: Thanks all for coming. Can't believe all you came. CCC is December 27 - 30. You are all invited. Back second week of january. Meet again when we have keys.
Bill: First step is go look at the place. Old rusted stuff in the garage. Supposed to be cleaned up. Model T was there, but not part of the sale. Staff hasn't even seen it. Then everyone walks through. Not a big space but it's nice. Have combined space, need to access part of the basement. If someone wants to come buy the vacant lot, then that could be interesting. Think of this as germ of something. If someday becomes 200 members, can see what happens.
what I've seen is that people in NYC paying and don't even have the space. Once have the model then can expand it. If six months to a year too small, can expand.
Rachel: can we sing kumbaya?
[Ensuing discussion of entering the space.]
Jake: To close meeting, say a few sentences.
Erinn: Looking forward to helping rebuild space. Home improvement space .
Andy: Building tables.
Erinn: Interior decoraction.
Bill: Duncan Mccallum used to be in construction.
David: Excited that everyone is on the same page. Unity of purpose.
Michael: Seems like something fresh. excited
Jake: Totally stoked. People are coming to these places because they believe. Kind of like the occult clubs of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Great to meet people. No way for it to fail because it's already successful.
Audrey: Space to combine technology and art.
Rachel: Trying to avoid thinking about assigning tasks, what's the next step, etc. Need to wait until can look at the space.
Neva: Pleasure and honor to be in the room with people here. Linking art and technology very important to me. Nice to
be in a room full of like minded people.
Jake: Graffiti research labs now has offices in Vienna. Need to bring laser tag to SF. Need green laser pointer,
JSK: Excited to have social place for meeting people who do things. Been missing people who do things. Want to do
things outside work. Synergy of meeting people.
Bill: Wanted to create something like this for three years. Talked to Don Marti about this and about running the
cafe. See if this works, but this is an idea that have had. Looked at buildings since 2002, finally bought one.
Jake: Going to take some of my stuff and put it on the wiki.
Bill: Does anyone need an upright piano? Acoustic pianos are investment, tuning.
(meeting trails off)