Editing Meeting Notes 2011 09 06

== Agenda ==

[https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Category:Meeting_Notes The 177th Meeting of Noisebridge]

Note-taker: [[User:Malaclyps|Danny]] 

Moderator: [[User:Rubin110|Rubin]]
 

=== Introduction and Names ===
==== [[Noisebridge_Vision|What Noisebridge is about]] ====
==== Round of introductions ====

Rubin - he's here.

Alex - makes video games

Edd -- community service

Duncan -- makes wallets

Mike - technowanderer

Tracy - new

Zach -- fix shit

Dan -- build servers

Carl -

Garen -- make stuff

Robert -- make stuff

"Arf arf arf" -- a dog

Jorgen -- tastebridge

Jay -- publisher 

Jayc -- wannabe hacker

EVIL -- Perl hacker

Jim -- visiting london hackspace

Leanne - 

Matt - I'm new

Nathan -- visit from Bristol hackspace

Evan -- maker of intangibles

Nick -- 

Rachel --

Jake -- lead poisoning

Liz -- I code and write and stuff

Person hiding behind bins - hi!

* [[Consensus Process|A brief primer on consensus process]]: We agree and so should you! Only paid-up members can block consensus.

=== Short Announcements ===

Danny talks about the [[311|Noisebridge 311]] number. He would like help making it work well -- also encourage people to use IRC to find others if they need help.

=== New or Stale Events ===

Rubin introduced our Hacker Prom on Saturday, October 1st, dress shirt or tie. Robot as a date, and a fundraiser for tor.noisebridge.net. 

Dorkbot hoping to throw an event in 2 or 3 weeks, probably on a Wednesday. They are awesome.

5mof every third THURSDAY, september 15th.

On October 13-15th, hackmeet for hacktivism. 

=== Financial Report ===
Funds in bank: $20,453.83

We're so close guys! If we had had this much last week we would be at our goal of 3 months operating expenses untouched. Another $1K+ in dues/donations this month would put us over the edge! I have transferred another $5K to our savings account (meaning it now has a little over 15K in it) and if I don't have to touch that in the next month or so for bill-paying, I'd say we're good! Will keep everyone posted in these coming weeks. --[[User:Hurtstotouchfire]]

=== Membership Binder ===

Lots of new memberships incoming! 

=== Consensus items ===

''(Add any new items for consensus to the [[Current_Consensus_Items|Current Consensus Items]] page.)''

=== Discussion Items ===

Rob talks about the incident with Kayla, Jay and Duncan. from my understanding, he begins, somehow beer got spilt on her computer, and now it has turned into a blame game. I've read the mailing list accounts, and got one side of the stories.

The incident is as follow: Jay was inebriated and drunk, "belligerent". Duncan was sitting next to Kayla. Duncan had a beer and a burrito. Beer was tossed out of Duncan's hand, onto the computer. 

How much drink had Duncan had? He had a Corona before hand.

Jay's email was held in a queue, everyone [https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-September/024836.html quietly read it on the big screen].

Jorgen said Kayla couldn't come. We don't know about the laptop.

Zach says he'd be happy to look at it to help fix the laptop. The crux of the whole thing is the damage of the computer, but Things like this will happen in a collective space. One thing I'd like to come out of this, is some sort of protocol for when the police do get involved. That may have jumped the gun a little. 

Jason: We have a pretty good understanding that they call the police if its absolute necessary, and also an understanding that people differ on that, and we can argue about it.

Zach says calling the police means different things. We don't know people's background, some people might see it as a simple thing, some people might see it as very serious.

The moderator suggests that we will talk about that another time.

We all read [https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-September/024798.html Duncan's email].

Jake read [https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2011-September/024794.htmll Kayla's email] out. Jake believes the laptop is ruined. 

Jake is very concerned, because nobody wants to call the police or get physical. Nobody wants to tell people if they're out of line. If everybody in a community decides that they don't want to deal with a problem, the community changes and not for the good.

Jay says that consuming alcohol does not change you into a wombat. Nobody involved in this was that drunk. 

Jorgen, computer or not, accident or not, if somebody drunk gets asked to leave the premises, and you refuse to do so, then that individual makes a terrible mistake. It's not about you, it's about the community. If you refuse to leave, then that's not excellent.

Alex's story: I was there, and I'm going to give some background, and my opinion on what happened. When I met Jay for the first time, he was not feeling well, and passed out on the couch, and a woman who was also in pain with a migraine was there. My first impression of Jay was that he seemed really out of it and belligerent about not being asked to not sleep on the couch. We have a sense that anyone can ask someone not to sleep. Youm Jay, responded to being asked not to sleep on the couch, and the response was "fuck off!". You don't treat people like that in Noisebridge. 

In this case, The number one thing you don't do, is say that if you want me to leave, you need to call the cops. When you say "I will not leave, these people are liars", you come across as belligerent. It makes everyone want to leave, you were speaking in a way that Buddhists call "bad speech". That first time, I asked you to respect other Noisebridgers. 

I said then what I said at the evening of the incident, which was I'm not telling you to leave, I'm telling you that other people would like to leave, they've called the police. I too was asked to leave Noisebridge a long time ago -- I didn't petition then, I apologised and left the space for months.

The email shows that you do care. You seem like you want to obey Noisebridge's standards. I'm jus saying that you're really bad at it. Anyone who wants to not be seen as "crazy" or "belligerent", needs to leave their struggles in the rest of their life at the door. 

The last thing is: you gave me a completely conflicting version about the laptop. In my opinion, the laptop is the least of this. What ultimately is unacceptable is the way you behaved. 

Rubin doesn't give a shit about a laptop. Stuff gets broken. What I do expect is to have good interactions here. It might be in your best interests to discuss how you behaved. 

Jay: I would just like to alert people, although it may seem like I'm timid not a very interactive person, I'm always busy and working on things, and when people interfere with that -- as often happens here -- when people interfere with my work, it upsets me. I try to be very productive, whether it's the magazine or my  the painting. I don't like interactions when I'm doing that. Because of that, perhaps, people will talk about me, instead of to me. I had some traumatic experiences, and so when I'm confronted by two or more people, so I freak out. This whole meeting is very hard for me to do. 

Jason: Thank you for doing this. I'd like to ask: is the description of how others have described you, the way you think you behave.

Jay: Well, this doesn't just happen here. I'm published widely, and my magazine is read very widely. I deal with this situation all the time. 

Jason: Could you answer the question?

Jay: Yes, I behave like this.

Jason: Is there anything that you have regrets about? Because I'm hearing two very different descriptions of events, and I'd like to see some overlap.

Jay: I think I acted inappropriately to Alex in these two occasions. I don't think it was caused by him -- I think he was stepping into a situation.

Jayc: I've known Jay for some time. Other than that, my occurrences have been moderate to mediocre. One time in the laser room, Laurent was in the clasrrom, and I was using the laptop and the laser. I heard this huge stomping sound. It was scary. I was frankly concerned about the laptop and the laser getting affected by the stomping. Laurent went up to say "what the fuck is going on?" in a scared manner. That wasn't good. 

Jason: Did something like this occur, Kay?

Jay: I was just felt that I wasn't allowed to work.

Jayc: As another member of the community, it was the most intense situation I've seen in NB. (General consensus that Jayc has seen his fair share of intense situations) When that happened, I literally leapt down the stairs to try and find out what was going down. One day, me and Carl were watching a show, three or four weeks ago. Jay came in, he came over, say down next to Elle, with no consideration for her. 
(Everyone talks about how El has been uncomfortable in the space.)

Jason: do you remember this?

Jay: [don't know]

Jay: Perhaps I shouldn't come here at night, perhaps I shouldn't drink.
But I do think I'm can be a comfortable (fit with the space).

Jake: This journalism you describe, is that under your real name?

Jay: It's under (my real name, which is close to my given name). The magazine is taking up more of my time than my journalism.

Jake: Is that how you make money?

Jay: I also sell painting in the street. I have extensive experience in working in restaurants. 

Jake: Do you make money on the painting?

Jay: I take donations.

Jake: Do you ever sell other types of things?

Jay: I sometimes sell food. I wouldn't make food here and then sell it though.

Jake: Where do you do this?

Jay: Valencia, 18th, the Castro, the police during the day have kicked me out there, also Powells.

Jake: You sell just artworkk?

Jake: T-shirts, sometimes.

Robert: Duncan stated that he walked past Jay on Saturday. He passed by Jay on the Castro St station, and Duncan saw Jay selling a black microscope.

Jason: You saw that?

Duncan: Yes.

Jason: Is this true? Were you selling a microscope?

Jay: No.

Jake: Where's our microscope gone, Jay?

Jay: I don't know. Duncan's trying to frame me.

Jason: This man is trying to frame you?

Jay: I don't know why everyone is critical of me. I don't know what Rob has against me -- he tried to destroy my art. 

Rob: I cleared up. I threw some of the artwork out. I was sorry.

Wish: I like aestetics, flow. In the process, I watch what's going on. It went from hard liquor, and then beer, in the incidents before that. This is alcohol-related. It's always too self-centered. He sounds delusional. Not the kind of interaction that's fun.

Rubin: I feel that the alcohol stuff is by the by.

Dan: I haven't had any serious incidents. People have told me that they feel uncomfortable around him. El left permanently. I agree with you about not being able to get work done here, it's hard sometimes -- but you shouldn't take it out on people.

Jayc: In addition to what happened with the artwork, I made penance. He alerted me that he was missing a piece of art. I gave him $7 for the material. He came back with a bottle of booze. 

There's a lot of people speaking about what's happened. We have two directions that we can go in as a community. We can take those negative aspects, and that will lead to Jay not being allowed into the space. Or we could let Jay consider how his behaviour has led to other people leaving, and see if there's a slow way to deal with it. His main worry seems to be that people talk about him behind his back. Let me be a fair moderator. He's helped cleaned up before. He's done some good. Up to us to figure out what we have to do. I think there should be a grace period. I want to collaborate, see if I can work with you as a peer. That's happened before -- if there's no peer, then errors may occur, and people don't reach out. We should give them a chance, and not in such an overwhelming way.

Jason: I think it reasonable that there should be a liason for Jay. 

Rubin: Are you nominating yourself?

Jason: Suuure. I'd like to move that there's a suspension for a month.

Leif: I move that Jason not actually be the liaison , if he's suspending Jason for a month.

Jason: Okay, you be the liaison

Leif: Okay, fair enough.

Miloh: Man, if he stays around, I will leave.

Duncan: I think I have the right and fair expectation to have as Miloh said, to feel personally safe from physical harm. This is not an isolated incident. This is going on day in, day out. We're not a crisis shelter. I came here in early June. I have had similar problems to Jay. Noisebridge has helped me immensely. I am less feral. I am able to constrain themself.  I've kept my word. I take great pride in that. We can not help everybody. I can't come here. I have had to leave Jay alone in this place. Noone else wanted to take responsibility. Following up, Jorgen, Robert, Danny, people who are here. And it's not just the nighttime.

Liz: But didn't we just say all this stuff to you two months ago?

Jay volunteers for a suspension for a month, and come back on October 6th.

Jake says that will reasonable.

Rubin disagrees with issuing a month suspension, and threatens to block.

Jay points out he's volunteering to leave, and Rubin, despite being a member, cannot actually block people's voluntary actions.

Jay says that he will need time to move his things out, so that might take a few days.

Everyone agrees that this is not acceptable.

Liz: Do you need a place to store your things?

Jay: No, but I need help to do it.

Liz: We can help you move your stuff. How about now?

Jay: I can't right now, the place I'd store my stuff is closed.

(Leif, Robert work with Jay to pick up his stuff at 4PM tomorrow)

Jason: We all agree that you need to move your stuff out at a clear time. It can't be ambiguous as to when you're leaving.

Rubin: One of the things here is when people do their main commercial work here. It makes it so that you end up getting stressed and mad if you're interrupted.

Leif: You said you shouldn't drink, and you shouldn't come at night. Are you willing to commit if you return?

Jay: (unclear)

Jason: Obviously you have different ways of things. After your break, are you willing to say you're not going to get drunk.

Jay: Yes.

Liz: It seems like Jay may not have heard them being critics, because you perceived them as being unreasonable. You seem to be responding to us all saying this at once, which is positive. 

As a community, we need to deal with this beforehand. We seem to think that it's tattling to speak up about incidents early, but because nothing is said, it's hard for us to respond quickly as a community. this meeting has brought up plenty of incidents that we were unaware of. We need a way to intercede before dogpiling in in these meetings. 

Jayc: I may not be a member, but I put in a lot of work. There reason why I deserve to donate 8 hours of time. Why? I contribute to doing something nice in the community because it's a nice community. I see where Jay is coming from, and the stress that thiss meeting is bringing up. I like the suspension period. Because of the lack of communication, there could have been a better resolution. There's a lot of people who say negative things. Maybe we get over ourselves, and come together. We could be other reasons why this is happening. I feel if someone had sat down with Jay earlier, it might have been resolved. 
THe microscope-- I don't care if he sold it, or Duncan sold it. I think we need better communication on all levels. 

Robby the Intern:

I have something to say, although it's not really abou this.

A few months ago, I was in school, and the only way I learned about electronics was by searching the Internet. Then I interned here. I never believed I'd get to do all of this stuff. It's been amazing. I wanted to thank Zach, Lillia for for loops, Jake and H-Bridges, and Jason who I call the zen programmer, he taught me a lot about programming and philosophy. Ben taught me about being a hacker.

I think you guys are being too hard on yourselves. Just by making these guys sit here is a punishment in itself. A punishment for all of ourselves. Noisebridge is a great place. I come from the east bay, and I've seen people who have everything, behaving badly, selling iPhones. And I've seen people here at Noisebridge, who have nothing, say "Oh, look, it's X's Macbook Pro, they must have left it. We'll keep it safe, and give it to them when they come back."

This is an amazing place, and I want to thank you for all your time you gave me while I interned.

Rob: I think that hacking is about being more efficient. Let's continue to hack to make all of this thing that we want to continue, more efficient.

Duncan announces will be seeking a restraining order in court.

FIN

=== End of Meeting ===
* [[PGP|PGP Key Signing]] could happen now, check the [[PGP|list]] to see who wants in on the action.
* Put back the membership binder in the black desk.
* Save the meeting notes to the wiki.
* Send a copy of the meeting notes to the discussion list.
* Copy the [[Meeting Notes Template]] for next week's agenda and update the main wiki page's link to it.
* Enjoy a cocktail with your fellow hacker or robot.

[[Category:Meeting Notes]]