Editing Meeting Notes 2014 11 11

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Mohammad - You can't take in everything around you, you must have boundaries. But drawing the line is tough. Judging by looks or anything else can sometimes not be the right thing. It should be done case by case because we can't make a general rule in this situation.  
 
Mohammad - You can't take in everything around you, you must have boundaries. But drawing the line is tough. Judging by looks or anything else can sometimes not be the right thing. It should be done case by case because we can't make a general rule in this situation.  
  
Naomi - I've heard people saying over and over again that NB's lack of rules is a "good thing". A rhetoric professor of mine had struggles in conceptualizing morality for his son, so what he settled on was the mantra of "Do the right thing". In some situations things like breaking curfew might be the Right Thing. In NB's case we have the "be excellent to each other" as the ultimate rule which guides. In the human system the skin, which is very porous is the first layer of defense. It lets in some amount of the outside world. It's us sensing the world. We don't want to cut ourselves off but experience the world.  
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Naomi - I've heard people saying over and over again that NB's lack of rules is a "good thing". A rhetoric professor of mine had struggles in communicating with his son, but all he wants was for his son to do the right thing and in some situations things like breaking curfew might be right. In NB's case we have the "be excellent to each other" is the ultimate rule which guides. In the human system the skin, which is very porous is the first layer of defense. It lets in some amount of the outside world. It's us sensing the world. We don't want to cut ourselves off but exerience the world.  
  
 
Torrie - When I suspect red flags about something in the space I always assume that I'm wrong and I go around and talk to people and try to gather opinions / feedback on my analysis of the situation, providing it in the most unbiased way possible.  
 
Torrie - When I suspect red flags about something in the space I always assume that I'm wrong and I go around and talk to people and try to gather opinions / feedback on my analysis of the situation, providing it in the most unbiased way possible.  
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POD - This topic interests me greatly because we had this same issue w/ a drug addict community at cellspace. We tried to help those in need of resources and it caused us a lot of difficulties. But it helped us not become a gated community. They were our neighbours. I'm sensing already that people here are in a defensive mode, due to having had bad experiences. You will need to defend yourselves against destructive forces. Be careful however to not become too much of a gated community. It's important to realise that we're in the midst of a very tense situation in the Mission.  
 
POD - This topic interests me greatly because we had this same issue w/ a drug addict community at cellspace. We tried to help those in need of resources and it caused us a lot of difficulties. But it helped us not become a gated community. They were our neighbours. I'm sensing already that people here are in a defensive mode, due to having had bad experiences. You will need to defend yourselves against destructive forces. Be careful however to not become too much of a gated community. It's important to realise that we're in the midst of a very tense situation in the Mission.  
  
Naomi - We have been through a lot, we're basically rebuilding after a cycle of tearing it all down and starting afresh. We're trying to start in a way that gives us strength, it feels much less delicate here than it was last month. One of the things that has us differ from cellspace is the classes we have here on a regular basis. They provide us a lot of anti-entropy work that we'd not get as individuals. Students come in with good intentions in how they use the space. Some individuals come with not great intentions; the idea is to put the weight on the side of "good intentions".
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Naomi - We have been through a lot, we're basically rebuilding after a cycle of tearing it all down and starting afresh. We're trying to start in a way that gives us strength, it feels much less delicate here than it was last month. One of the things that has us differ from cellspace is the classes we have here on a regular basis. They provide us a lot of anti-entropy work that we'd not get as individuals. They have a lot of godo intentions in how they use the space. Many people come with not great intentions.
  
 
Steve - If we're different as a space and we're trying to be open one of the ways that we can present this is that we have no hard and fast rules apart from "be excellent". This allows anyone, *anyone* to come in. As far as immune system that allows everyone in. As a group we want to have it be open but keep the bad things out. We have to do with effort and community instead of rules. It's better than any algorithm. It's the only way to do it. We can be open and not die due to entropy and noise, but only by engaging with each other and helping out. You can't always write down the "right thing" to do in a situation but there's usually a right/wrong way to get the desired outcome. Saying that we're open is unrealistic unless folks are actively interested in maintaining the space. If this community dies, another occupy comes in and the hackers run away due to lack of engagement the space dies, but if we stick together we can keep it alive.
 
Steve - If we're different as a space and we're trying to be open one of the ways that we can present this is that we have no hard and fast rules apart from "be excellent". This allows anyone, *anyone* to come in. As far as immune system that allows everyone in. As a group we want to have it be open but keep the bad things out. We have to do with effort and community instead of rules. It's better than any algorithm. It's the only way to do it. We can be open and not die due to entropy and noise, but only by engaging with each other and helping out. You can't always write down the "right thing" to do in a situation but there's usually a right/wrong way to get the desired outcome. Saying that we're open is unrealistic unless folks are actively interested in maintaining the space. If this community dies, another occupy comes in and the hackers run away due to lack of engagement the space dies, but if we stick together we can keep it alive.
  
Kevin - Something that I find interesting about all of this is how single cell organism rules apply to multi-cell organism and communities, but the only difference is how the principles are applied. For humans its lines of communications and self-reflecting. In a group we have to talk to each other. We must be open and talk about issues when we notice them.
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Kevin - Something that I find interseting about all of this is how single cell organism rules apply to multi-cell organism and communities, but the only difference is how the principles are applied. For humans its lines of communications and self-reflecting. In a group we have to talk to each other. We must be open and talk about issues when we notice them.
  
 
Rayc - I've been on the worst end of the immune-system thinking where I told trusted folks in the community but it wasn't acted upon because the individual was "contributing". There's "auto-immune" disorder here. I gave 2 people a tour of the space and then a trusted community member came and asked me "what are these crack-heads doing here" when they encountered them. The only reason I didn't ask them to leave because they are a trusted member.
 
Rayc - I've been on the worst end of the immune-system thinking where I told trusted folks in the community but it wasn't acted upon because the individual was "contributing". There's "auto-immune" disorder here. I gave 2 people a tour of the space and then a trusted community member came and asked me "what are these crack-heads doing here" when they encountered them. The only reason I didn't ask them to leave because they are a trusted member.
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Kevin - To go back. Cellular communication is precise, bad messages are dropped, good messages are passed on. People are more difficult. I encourage Rayc to not take it personally but to give some feedback as to how the message was not helpful. Don't just drop the message and get upset. Offer feedback
 
Kevin - To go back. Cellular communication is precise, bad messages are dropped, good messages are passed on. People are more difficult. I encourage Rayc to not take it personally but to give some feedback as to how the message was not helpful. Don't just drop the message and get upset. Offer feedback
  
Naomi - Few grander concepts. We'd like to be accepting of new people. Secondly we'd not like to die in a cultural fire. Some people are on the closed on things. Mitch is on the further along the "no not again" end of the spectrum than I'd ever have predicted. It's just a sad fact of our history that we have to contend with a lot of defensiveness at the moment. I'm not sure how to deal with it. In your situation Rayc, one needs to accept that some have more closed-off feelings. At NB some cells got more damaged than others.  
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Naomi - Few grander concepts. We'd like to be accepting of new people. Secondly we'd not like to die in a cultural mess fire. Some people are on the closed on things. Mitch is on the further along the "no not again" end of the spectrum than I'd ever have predicted. It's just a sad fact of our history that we have to contend with a lot of defensiveness at the moment. I'm not sure how to deal with it. In your situation Rayc, one needs to accept that some have more closed-off feelings. At NB some cells got more damaged than others.  
  
 
Rayc - I was thinking of this from a dynamic perspective. If this is going to happen in the future how can we deal with it? I think as we're going towards this more progressive culture there are more dynamics that we have to work toward as a community to have more net positive ways to deal with it rather than just let them happen. One of the reasons I'm bringing it up is so that we don't *have* to deal with it in the future. It's not conducive to where we're going.  
 
Rayc - I was thinking of this from a dynamic perspective. If this is going to happen in the future how can we deal with it? I think as we're going towards this more progressive culture there are more dynamics that we have to work toward as a community to have more net positive ways to deal with it rather than just let them happen. One of the reasons I'm bringing it up is so that we don't *have* to deal with it in the future. It's not conducive to where we're going.  
  
Naomi - The more we talk about it the better we get at it. We don't want to sweep things under the rug. In the case you're describing, a trusted member of the community who put an inordinate amount of work into the reboot, the circumstances are unfortunate. The weight of his contributions were sometimes greater than what he'd do in the moment. It's a problem we haven't solved yet. Someone who has a long history of excellence suddenly being not excellent.
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Naomi - The more we talk about it the better we get at it. We don't want to sweep things under the rug. In a case, a trusted member who put an inordinate amount of work into the reboot, the circumstances are unfortunate. The weight of his contributions were sometimse greater than what he'd do in the moment. It's a problem we haven't solved it yet. Someone who has a long history of excellence suddenly being not excellent.
  
 
Rayc - What I feel has happened is that a certain set of dynamics in the community that have happened in the past, red flags, concerns of safety, if I were to be brought up as a threat of safety to the space I'd want to be asked to leave immediately. What transpired was an ongoing thing that was swept under the rug. It felt like a blanket response from those not seeing the other side. This could be a repeat pattern.  
 
Rayc - What I feel has happened is that a certain set of dynamics in the community that have happened in the past, red flags, concerns of safety, if I were to be brought up as a threat of safety to the space I'd want to be asked to leave immediately. What transpired was an ongoing thing that was swept under the rug. It felt like a blanket response from those not seeing the other side. This could be a repeat pattern.  
  
Naomi - You're totally right that we need to be better at dealing with these red flags. The signals were there but they need to be amplified. People were listening.
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Naomi - You're totally right that we need to be better at dealing with these red flags. The signals were there but they need to be amplified .People were listenting.
  
 
Torrie - I'm still trying to wrack my brain about this. I saw these flags while not many people were here. I just want to say that it's really about communication. In this instance I didn't get a strong signal, they need to be amplified. I didn't get as strong an indication that it was a problem than others. I feel if I'd known more about it I'd have been better able to deal with it. I just remember having a single discussion and then getting it.
 
Torrie - I'm still trying to wrack my brain about this. I saw these flags while not many people were here. I just want to say that it's really about communication. In this instance I didn't get a strong signal, they need to be amplified. I didn't get as strong an indication that it was a problem than others. I feel if I'd known more about it I'd have been better able to deal with it. I just remember having a single discussion and then getting it.
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Torrie - I don't agree with that.  
 
Torrie - I don't agree with that.  
  
Kevin - I was made uncomfortable by the same individual for quite a while, while the same person gave a large amount of talk about community. It was difficult to amplify the signal in an environment that dampened the signal.
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Kevin - I was made uncomfortable by the same invidual for quite a while, while the same person gave a large amount of talk about community. It was difficult to amplify the signal in an environment that dampened the signal.
  
 
Torrie - I'd like to continue it outside the meeting.  
 
Torrie - I'd like to continue it outside the meeting.  
  
Naomi - I think it's a great discussion but I'd like to spend more time talking about the symptoms rather than the individuals.
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Naomi - I think it's a great discussion but I'd like to spend more time talking about symptons rather than individuals.
  
 
Rayc - I brought this up to look at these dynamics.  
 
Rayc - I brought this up to look at these dynamics.  

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