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https://pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting
DELETE EVERYTHING BELOW THIS LINE WHEN YOU POST THE MEETING MINUTES KTHX!!!
 
  
= Instructions =
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These are the notes from the The 437th Meeting of Noisebridge. Date: 2016-11-15 Note-taker: Alex Peake; Moderators: FIXME THEIR NAME HERE.
 +
One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.
 +
[edit]Meeting Summary
 +
FIXME FILL OUT AT END OF MEETING AND SEND TO MAILING LIST TLDR what happened at the meeting:
 +
Announcements:
 +
Finances:
 +
New members:
 +
New philanthropists:
 +
Consensus Items:
 +
Discussion Items:
  
Congratulations and/or condolences! You're reading this because you're participating in a meeting of Noisebridge!
+
== Introductions ==
  
You should read this instructional section thoroughly, and treat them as a guideline for how to host a meeting of Noisebridge. There are three ingredients to an [[Excellent]] meeting: A number of note takers, some facilitators, and participants.
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* Blake - hangs out here and does programming stuff fight facism
 +
* Steven - interested in ML and robotics.
 +
* Mitch - one of these "cofounder" guys (really we love him)
 +
* Juan - software stuff and programming and chatting and learning
 +
* Ryan Sternlicht- Noisebridge philanthropist, been coming here quite a while. Taking gamebridge class, planning to teach laser cutting techniques class in 2017
 +
* Steve - moved to san francisco interested in privacy and created Cypherpunks Write Code (https://www.meetup.com/Cypherpunks-Write-Code/) to direct more developer and designer effort toward privacy-protecting projects and to get input from activists and designers who want to help design/build encryption stuff.
 +
* Bana - Aspiring music producer and vocalist. First time here!
 +
* Ryan - make things an generate art
 +
* Mark - Game development and help out with unityversity classes on tuesdays, game hacking event once in awhile
 +
* Travis - stopped by for the last few years intermittently. occasional drop-in
 +
* Sally - from Luxembourg. Working to give startups funding from UN
 +
* Mark - first time, software dev, and electroniccs
 +
* Trent - teaches python monday nights at 7
 +
* Sam - moved to SF a month ago. Software developer by day and security person by non-day
 +
* Nate black - software guy. Interested in 3d printing, gamedev
 +
* Andy - EE first time at noisebridge. Came for gamebridge
 +
* David software eng, occasional hackerspace user and here for the biz
 +
* Frank - studying data communications and broadband tech
 +
* Nick - dev and uses the woodshop
 +
* Steve - theoretical physicist & software. been here 3-4 years
 +
* John - background in electronics and programming. been coming intermittently for years
 +
* quintessa - come around now and then, make music, sing and produce and make random MacGuyvery things
 +
* Alex - teaching gamebridge for the last few years. now it's a bootcamp !
 +
* Adam - mostly software, and interested in functional programming & logic
 +
* Zephyr - spams IRC for responsibly sourced computers (check out http://zv.github.io/buyers-guide.html ). "Just another programmer"
 +
* Lizzie - does computer security. been coming for about a month
 +
* Drew - interested in social and labor organizing, here to make friends!
 +
* Vicky - does things sometimes. coming for ~2 years
 +
* Emily? just moved here from france, doing a phd with materials and uses fablabs first time
 +
* emil - phd in machine learning first time
 +
* Taopa - recently second hand assistant harrasing us on IRC
 +
* Patrick - what do i do, less administrivia more hacking
 +
* don - I litterally just moved to the area over the weeekend, I'm a game dev. I love games. Loves gay stuff.
 +
* Jeremy - datascience, kaggle, audiobot on a pole. please help
 +
* matt - french, recently moved to SF, learning to code
 +
* Kevin -
 +
* Yana - (arrived after intros)
 +
* Felix - (arrived after intros)
 +
* Kevin - software engineer, here for unity development meeting, Participated in hackerspaces in NY
 +
* Francis - making time banking timespree system to help noisebridgers trade work on each others' projects. back from NY.
 +
* Mark - (arrived after intros)
 +
* Roger - (Arrived after intros)
  
Meetings are just one of the tools used at Noisebridge to create net forward progress on whatever it is we're all trying to do. Meetings aren't the only way to make decisions or have discussions, and in fact its usually a much better idea to talk about things outside the meeting before dragging the entire community kicking and screaming into it.
+
== Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to explain what Noisebridge is about ==
 +
Alex - Noisebridge is a hackerspace, not a makerspace. We have an ethos, not just tools. Everything can be made, remade by everyone. This is a space to take part in the community, governed by all of us as a non-profit. This place is an extension of your ability to change the world. It's all editable.
 +
Steve - We have referred to ourselves at times as an anarchist hackerspace. In the context of what we'll discuss later that's important. One importance of anarchism speaks to us having a resistence meeting.
 +
Mitch - as an anarchist space we have no leaders but one rule. Does anyoen know what it is ?
 +
Everyone -  ** Be excellent to each other **
  
== Note Takers ==
 
# Confirm last meeting was saved
 
# Take new notes
 
# Save and share the notes at the end of the meeting (instructions at the bottom).
 
  
== Facilitators ==
+
== Short announcements and events ==
  
There are generally two kinds of facilitator roles at a Noisebridge meeting:
+
* Zephyr - my spam is that there are many manufacturers of electronics changing sourcing practices. There's ongoing conflict in regions where minerals used are mined. Often the proceeds go to supporting corrupt power schemes. I'm compiling a list of ethical computer manufacturers
 +
[http://zv.github.io/buyers-guide.html]
  
* Stack taker - Useful when a lot of folks want to hop on the discussion stack. This gives everyone a turn to have their feelings heard. Usually only works when there is exactly one stack taker.
+
* Mitch - trump preparedness workshop next Tuesday at noisebridge. Come to learn about how to enhance your privacy. (Geared towards both non-technical people and technical people who want to improve their practices)
* Moderators - Keeps the meeting moving and prevents everyone from wasting too much time on one subject. Anyone is free to pick up moderation and move the meeting along.
+
* Steve - 3 weeks from now Cypherpunks Write Code (https://www.meetup.com/Cypherpunks-Write-Code/) will have their first hackathon. So if there are things that we need for resistence then we should collaborate.
 +
* Alex - laserbridge fundraiser was a success! Great game demos, dj'ing. If you want to help out w/ future parties come join our music group or make games!
 +
* Mitch - 3 day event in Oakland starting tomorrow: https://aspirationtech.org ; Event page: https://aspirationtech.org/events/devsummit16
 +
* Ryan - ill teach people how to get involved, making sure we'll go down the righ. Trump needs to succeed at creating JSON APIs for IOT platforms.I
 +
* Trent - python class is restarting next monday the 21st at 7 PM
 +
* Mark - spawing out of the laserbridge party, we want extend the game thing, maybe a 5MoF reboot.
 +
* Nick - 19th at meta, data viz thing hackathon
  
In general, moderators should:
+
== Safe Space ==
* Understand the structure of Noisebridge [[consensus|decision-making]]
+
Noisebridge is a safe space. Invite a volunteer to describe what that means.
* Make sure everyone gets a chance to speak.
 
* Speak only minimally yourself.
 
* Keep the meeting moving, and avoid getting bogged down.
 
* Identify discussion items, arrange times limits for talking about each item.
 
* Identify and summarize consensus, suggest things that need to be done.
 
* '''Get the [[membership binder]] and ensure that it is returned safely.'''
 
  
== Participants ==
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* Blake - noisebridge should be a spafe space for oppressed people. In my opinon, don't advocate for Trump, it makes people feel unsafe
 +
* Alex - there is a process and way to make people feel safe. Guidelines for dealing with conflicts with people can be found at https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Manual and https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Conflict_Resolution
 +
* Mitch - if you don't feel safe, tell someone and we will collectively make it better. on going process.
 +
* Trent - diversity noisebridge working group talk. we need a champion who wants to understand or understands Noisebridge culture at large.
  
Everyone at a Noisebridge meeting who has consented to participating in one is a participant!
+
== Participation ==
  
* Say your name before you talk.
+
* Steve - Noisebridge is open 10am-10pm during the day but that relies on people being here. But if you're coming here a while talk to a regular about getting an RFID tag for the door system which will allow you in during these hours without anyone else. These are anonymous and last 30 days. We cycle them out for social and safety reasons. Beyond that we have two tiers of participation and involemnet. You don't have to be either to use anything at noisebridge or take part.
* Remain on-topic, and speak as concisely as possible.
+
* Blake - anyone can attend or hold your own class if you'd like for free.
* Assist the note-taker with any links or corrections that are needed.
+
* Sam - What's the deal w/ Slack?
* Remain respectful of other participants, their time, and the consensus and moderation process.
+
* Blake - Slack is group chat for people physically present in the space frequently. To get access you need to be coming around as much as you would to get an RFID token. Not something you get your first day. Generally the folks who give this out have a lot of discretion.
 +
* Mitch - once you're here a few times then it's easy to get both (RFID and on Slack)
 +
* Kevin - if we want to put a class together. what do we do?
 +
* Blake - put it on the wiki. email -announce -discuss, bring it up at a meeting.
 +
* Alex - there's a "HOW TO" page on the wiki about how to do this.
 +
* Mitch - it's super easy. The more cool events we have the better so just ask if you haev questions.
 +
* Alex - https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Hosting_an_Event
  
 +
== Philanthropy ==
  
DELETE EVERYTHING ABOVE THIS LINE WHEN YOU POST THE MEETING MINUTES KTHX!!!
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* Alex - there's a mural over there how much you love noisebridge and how much it costs. If you want to give noisebridge $40/month or $80/month regularly and have folks who want to vouch for you, you can do so tonight. You fill out a form, pledge to keep the space safe (close up when you leave etc...) and otherwise take care of the place. Justfind one member to vouch for you.
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These are the notes from the [https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Category:Meeting_Notes The XXXth Meeting of Noisebridge]. Date: FIXME THE DATE HERE Note-taker: FIXME YOUR NAME HERE; Moderators: FIXME THEIR NAME HERE.
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== membership ==
* '''One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.'''
 
  
== Meeting Summary ==
+
* Nick - membership comes after philanthropy. Usually by the time your membership comes up you're already kinda an "unofficial" member. People know you, you contribute things. The process is you filling out your membership application, getting 2 member sponsors, and having your application read out at 4 meetings. You get the power of concensus
FIXME FILL OUT AT END OF MEETING AND SEND TO MAILING LIST
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* Alex - two benefits: sponsoring new philanthropists, and also having a say in other people's membership applications
TLDR what happened at the meeting:
+
* Trent - Philanthopy is not a strict stepping stone to being a member. They're separate ways to participate that are both equally valid.
* Announcements:
+
* ZV - 1835 days later.... he wants RFID god dammit
* Finances:
 
* New members:
 
* New philanthropists:
 
* Consensus Items:
 
* Discussion Items:
 
  
= Introductions =
 
  
* '''Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to explain''' [[Noisebridge_Vision|what Noisebridge is about]]:
+
== Financial Report ==
<blockquote>Noisebridge is a 501c3 nonprofit that provides a space for creation, collaboration, and learning about technology and creative projects. Noisebridge provides space, power tools, and infrastructure to help the public learn new skills and create cool things. Noisebridge continues to exist through and depends entirely on membership fees and donations. Our code of conduct is 'Be excellent to each other'."</blockquote>
 
* Introduce any experimental or unusual moderation techniques that may be using during the meeting like: direct responses, limited speaking time, orderless stack, &c.
 
* Round of introductions (remember, announcements come later):
 
** What's your name
 
** What do you do
 
** What do you maintain at Noisebridge?
 
** if you are new: how did you hear about Noisebridge?
 
  
= Short announcements and events =
+
We have ~$60k+ in the bank. Figures incoming.
* Cool new projects? Something you'd like people to know? Say now, but keep it short! One or two sentences please!
 
* Any happenings at the space of which members should be made aware.
 
* Don't hog everyone's time since we all just want to hack!
 
  
= Safe Space =
+
== Consensus Items ==
  
'''Note:''' This section is experimental. We discussed it at [[Meeting_Notes_2016_06_28]]. We're going to try it for the next meeting, and see how it goes, and then discuss in the discussion section how it went, and how we'd like to tweak it.
+
* Mitch - we make all the formal decisions through consensus, which means that all present members must agree with something for it to pass. Usually proposals change to accommodate people. We rarely use it, only for large things like when we moved into this space (funding, planning, etc...) It works by bringing an item to a meeting, it's discussed, and written down. Then next week it comes up for discussion again. If it remains unchanged and everyone agrees then we can pass the proposal. It must be stable for two weeks before this can happen. Objections must come with a counter-proposal for it to be considered. RE: "blocking". Blocks are super duper serious. They basically mean that you'll leave if it passes. They're generally considered the nuclear option and are symptomatic of bad things. The only exception is for new membership. Blocks without a counter-proposal are accepted here given the importance of membership & extending consensus.
 +
* Mitch - consensus is super slow, so we do most things through do-ocracy. Follow the one rule though: be excellent to each other, and if someone objects to your excellence you must be willing to undo it.
 +
* Don - can you apply for membership multiple times?
 +
* Mitch - yep totally ok.
 +
*
  
Noisebridge is a safe space. '''Invite a volunteer to describe''' what that means.
+
== Discussion Items ==
 +
* Mitch: I left the country 4 months ago and came back to amess. Three days the mess was decided to ensue for the next four years.
 +
(On slack and in the space) A lot of people have a lot of strong emotions as aresult of the election going in various directions and some people are very scared, concerned, and not many people in our community (or our country) are happy about our country or optimistic about how things are going for the next 4 years.
 +
 
 +
During discussions, people are wondering things abstract specific and hypothetical about how we should respond if certain things happen.
 +
 
 +
It got emotional on slack and it isn't really a good way to discuss emotionally charged issues so we decided on slack to have an in-person meeting to discuss these things.
 +
 
 +
One issue: What if someone comes into NB with a trump T shirt. What do you do about that? Some people said kick them out. Other people said if we kick them out for having an opinion, that's not cool. I (Mitch) have an opinion about that opinion, I don't think that is an opinion in my opinion. Someone said if we're intolerant of intolerance we're intolerant. In my view I'm proud of being prejudiced against prejudiced people. We started Noisebridge with one rule be excellent. If someone violates and is willing to change behaviour excellently they can stay but if they're not willing they have to go faster than sooner. That's some of my opinion together with my perception of why we're having this meeting.
 +
 
 +
ZV: I think that is totally true and NB, if we're to perpetuate excellence, we must be intolerant of other intolerance. I think there's a divide about where we should stop people at the door regarding how strongly people express intolerant beliefs. I'm frightened when someone like Otter gets kicked out for saying mean things about techies. Sometimes someone posts saying someone said something mean on twitter suggesting they should be excluded. This oculd happen to any of us saying something that someone else disagrees with. We need to figure out where in the spectrum of belief we should accept people who say they voted for trump to the most extreme elements.
 +
 
 +
Blake: I understand what you're saying ZV, I think that figuring out the border about where we will or wont kick someone out is a cloudy thing and we have to rely on discretion of awesome people to figure it out, at the end of the day they'll need to make a judgement call about if they're making someone feel unsafe. Having a discussion about what they could or couldn't do is difficult. This already kind of happened and it already crossed a line and we asked someone to stop and they apologized and we're okay with them being here on that basis. That's what I had to say. I personally want to fight fascism and fuck Trump.
 +
 
 +
 
 +
Kevin: What if someone is excellent here but has a hateful opinion voiced out in the world.
 +
 
 +
Blake: If someone's behaviour outside NB made me feel unsafe, I wouldn't want them to be here. If you were harassing people on the Internet and being quiet here, we would side-eye you wondering what you might do next.
 +
 
 +
Trent: We recently kicked out someone who was spreading anti-gay stuff on Twitter (at the space)
 +
 
 +
Steve (new cypherpunk): I understand why Trump seems like a fascist with a list of 200 reasons why. A week or so someone put a trump hat here and someone thought it was appropriate to steal his property and destroy it because he disagreed with it. I think that's not okay to destroy people's stuff. There's more to why people have certain beliefs and why the beliefs are held I don't know how much to get into it but there are people who are racist and feel unsafe around black people so if the only criteria is to say anything that makes someone feel unsafe. For example of criteria: Property destruction maybe not okay.
 +
 
 +
Blake: I destroyed the hat and I feel good about it. It was hung up like a display on our wall and up for hacking and that was no longer someone's private property it was propaganda. If I were an undocumented immigrant who came in I would feel this was an unwelcoming place so I got rid of it. What you said about safety is true, if someone felt unsafe around black people it is racist and unexcellent and we would ask that person to leave. We have discretion.
 +
 
 +
Mitch: To elaborate on that, it is totally fine to tell someone to leave if you feel unsafe at Noisebridge. We have our own culture here, one that we come together to create, and we have one rule purposefully subjective: be excellent to each other, we don't have an official list of examples, because they can quickly become rules (where we need exceptions, etc.) that can become dogmatic. It is continually talked about and our culture for 6 years or so has become strong. People who belong here are people who both benefit from and contribute to our community while following our one rule. People who belong and feel that they belong here are observing that one rule. If someone feels unsafe because someone is not following the be exellent rule, it is okay to ask them to change their behaviour or ask them to leave if they're unwilling to change. If necesary they should be asked to leave. In response to ZV, it isn't that someone said something mean on Twitter once, but they might be asked and given a chance to modify behaviour. Otter was given plenty of chances. She was being a total dick. She's never contributed to our community, even a little.
 +
 
 +
Frank: What was her cause?
 +
Mitch: She had her own version of fighting gentrification which was printing flyers saying "DIE TECHIE SCUM".
 +
ZV: She was really nasty, no doubt about it. On principle I agree she should have been kicked out of the space, I think that the discourse surrounding it was not what I would like to see. I think that the idea that we come to a consensus or ask someone to leave without an external reason just please come back next time. That is something so enshrined in Noisebridge is essential to NB. If someone harbors views counter to NB safety, they should be kicked out.
 +
 
 +
DON: If someone says something on social media, persona don't persist across social media platforms. What people post is in context of the platform and what you think your audience is. You're not the same person online as you are sitting face to face at the table or at home. Someone being nasty outside here may have a reason we don't understand. Good to get full situation before judging someone as nasty with a warning first.
 +
 
 +
Francis: Make sure someone isn't impersonating someone and faking their comments on a social media platform.
 +
 
 +
Mitch: It's not just one instance, people have a chance to change behaviour and if they can they can change and stay. If unwilling and unable...
 +
 
 +
Steve: Does wearing a trump shirt or hat here constitute disruptive behaviour mean someone should get kicked out?
 +
 
 +
Mitch: They have to be given a chance to change their behavior
 +
 
 +
Cryptosteve: Is wearing a shirt "behavior"?
 +
 
 +
Adam: The question about shirt: I think the person bringing a shirt here might be trolling and trolling is not excellent. On the other hand, while I agree about intolerance of intolerance I'm queasy about presumption that anyone supporting Trump is intolerant. I think its eveidence taht it is more likely but needs to be established.
 +
 
 +
Lizzie: At that point it is on them to make that clear if you wear a Trump shirt its yours to explain.
 +
 
 +
Adam: It is trolling to try to get a reaction at a space like this so there are differences of behaviour. Some people say "I voted for trump" as a discussion, other people wear things to troll.
 +
 
 +
Frank: Regards slogans, who has the right to own a slogan?
 +
 
 +
Trent: Don, the thing you brought up what is bad behaviour outside the space? The test becomes someone who uses a megaphone to espouse a hateful view and if they do that in public the consensus (small c) was no. Versus if they say something just as a personal statement that is less of an issue.
 +
 
 +
?? (Guy in the back with a top hat): I want to draw a line here... I think there's 2 kinds of trump supporters: There are those that believe that his policies make the country better, and there are those who actively want to make the lives of many americans worse and make them feel unsafe. If you feel unsafe, why? We can say that Trump support in this community is not acceptable, but Trump support*ers*?
 +
 
 +
Steve Wilcox: Also if someone comes into the space, we're not going to ban them without knowing their political views and knowing what they really think. IF they're promoting the sort of vitriolic propaganda that was part of the campaign... This is an open-minded space and we're not trying to ban discussion in the space but more or less to ban the kind of actions that marginalize people.
 +
 
 +
Cryptosteve: I get what [top hat] is saying... There's a principled libertarian view that argues that you should vote for who supports your economic best interests. I find this reprehensible, that you can ignore everything else. But it is a belief, and are we going to ban libertarians now? :mlady:
 +
 
 +
Steve Wilcox: This is not about someone being nieve, this is about someone who wants to actually talk about the state of affairs. But if someone pushes an ideology in the space about marginalizing people...
 +
 
 +
Cryptosteve: Mitch said someone in a Trump shirt is unwelcome.
 +
 
 +
Blake: If we asked someone wearing a Trump shirt for economic pragmantic reasons it goes beyond personal beliefs.
 +
 
 +
Cryptosteve: Even if they support trump for Economic reasons? If they clarify?
 +
 
 +
Blake: it isn't up to them that they're making people uncomfortable. If you're bothering people and saying "well I'm not intending to bother people, we say be considerate and if you make them upset by wearing the shirt... if someone walks in who is muslim or undocumented they are just going to see that and leave feeling uncomfortable..."
  
Some specific points you might prompt the group to touch on, if it doesn't happen naturally:
+
Trent: I...
* What to do if you feel uncomfortable.
 
* Noisebridge strives to be radically inclusive. What does that mean?
 
* Noisebridge has an antiharassment policy. What does that mean?
 
  
= Participation =
+
Blake: I would ask them to be considerate and offer them another shirt to be able to participate without upsetting people.
  
Invite a knowledgable volunteer to describe who can participate at Noisebridge, including:
+
??: If someone walked in w Trump shirt, a question would be "Do you consider yourself racist" it matters. Explaining this is a safe space for everybody if you're not transphobic or whatever. Be ready to answer questions if you do that.
* Describe how to get an rfid key for the door system
 
* Describe how to get access to slack
 
  
= [[Philanthropists]]=
+
Patrick: For people who've not been around NB, there's been emotional labor about this because NB doesn't have a police force. It is a community that puts effort into doing the right thing in personal conflicts. NB owes you nothing. This is a community space. Also Noisebridge is overly accomodative and late to react when it comes to changing someone's behavior. A lot of energy goes into resolution. This discussion has a lot of wheels spinning... Noisebridge does not run as a system.
* '''Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to describe''' [[Philanthropist/Pledge|Philantropy]], and the application process.
 
* Read off any names from the binder for the past month. Any applicants must have their sponsor present to vouch for them.
 
* If there are no objections, they're a philanthropist! Their pledge should be handed over to the [[Secretary]] posthaste, after which their token will be updated to give them the 24/7 access they've earned(?)
 
  
= [[ Membership Binder ]] =
+
Fineline Steve: we've all listened to what trump said. His words are explicitly racist, explicitly misogynist, explicitly violent. He takes back what he says every second. The damage has already been done. All of which are the antithesis of what Noisebridge is about. For somebody to say "for economic reasons" that they support Trump, implies that they either are blind to this violence or complicit. It's such a stupid position and so far from excellence that I do not think it belongs in the space.
  
* '''Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to describe''' [[membership]], and the application process.
+
I might say something like "Oh, Trump's a fascist". One thing about fascism is that fascists aren't interested in having a dialog, or how they can come to a compromise. They are very excited about using violence to get their way. It is not something that we can support, whether they are naive to it or not.
<blockquote>Being a member of Noisebridge is not like being a member of a gym or your local chess club. Anyone can come to Noisebridge to hack and learn: you don't need to be a member for that. At Noisebridge, membership is something different: it means taking responsibility and committing to help to maintain, improve, and govern Noisebridge. As a member of Noisebridge, you don't just come here to hack and learn, you actively work to improve what you see around you, help to deal with problems, and make this community and space better than it is today.</blockquote>
 
* Read off any names from the binder for the past month. Mark down a check or other indicator on every open application to keep track of how many weeks they've been read out.
 
* Anyone eligible to join this week should
 
** introduce themselves,
 
** answer any questions members may have for them, then
 
** leave the area in search of gifts (traditionally beer and a lime, or cookies) for the rest of the group.
 
* The rest of the meeting should reach consensus on whether they may join.
 
* Remember to applaud new members when they return.
 
  
 +
Lizzie agrees with there being no
  
= Financial Report =
+
Mark: I met a practical trumpist. I just want to say that it was an "interesting" conversation, but I would fully support any effort to ask him to leave.
* Funds in bank:
 
* Noisetor (See the bulletpoints at the bottom of http://noisetor.net/finances/#summary):
 
* Any other details by those participating in handling our financials
 
  
= Consensus and Discussion =
+
Fineline steve: I appreciate the comment. I want to revise the statement. I don't want to imply that all trump supporters are fascist, but through their claiming of support, they are sending a message to people who know what fascism is, that they are complicit. They are supporting violence against people [who know what fascists are]
  
* '''invite a knowledgeable volunteer to give '''[[Consensus Process|a brief primer on consensus process]]
+
Mark: If you came up to us when we were having this discussion, I would feel fine helping you ask these people to leave
* It is important that everyone in attendance understands at least:
 
** Blocking with verbalized principled objections.
 
** Why we use consensus over other approaches to decision making.
 
** How consensus isn't a legislative process
 
** Why consensus isn't applicable to some things like conflict resolution, resolution of time sinks, and the like.
 
  
== [[ Consensus Items History | Proposals from last week ]] ==
+
Chris: I agree (to a degree) that people cannot be reasoned with, but I think some people can be convinced by rational discussion. In this community, we should keep things to slack. I knew a hardcore fascist, and when I asked him why he believed what he did, and after a discussion, I was able to convince him that fascism was not the outlet he was looking for. Rational discussion helps tremendously
''(Add any items which are consensed upon or someone has raised a principle objection for to the [[Consensus Items History]] page.)''
 
  
== [[ Current Consensus Items | Proposals for next week ]] ==
+
Fineline steve: I 98% agree. I don't think we should convince the guy here. Talk to them, instead of kicking out, but then if it doesn't work out, kick them out.
''(Add any new items for consensus to the [[Current Consensus Items]] page.)''
 
  
== Discussion Items ==
+
Francis: I want to split things up here: We have the sloganeering, the economic trump supporters, the question of whether this discussion belongs in the space, but personally I'd be troubled if we created a thoughtcrime out of Trump support. Wearing a shirt is less controversial. You're publicly showing that you support this racist guy. I'll say that we probably aren't talking about this thought/political test. But consider if we had a community member that was incredibly anti-abortion. What would we do then?
 +
 
 +
???: The best way to avoid political tests or anything like that is to stick to ground rules.
 +
 
 +
ZV: Blake and Patrick have excellent points as to how these rules are actually implemented. But there are people who know people who have been killed by drone strikes. The point being that <sorry guys I forgot the point help me plz>
 +
 
 +
Lizzie: Noisebridge is problably not the place to have a rational conversation with a fascist. I don't want to be here when it happens. It would probably ruin my day!
 +
 
 +
Trent: Clarify rational vs adversarial? Some conversations are constructive and some are adversarial.
 +
 
 +
Lizzie: Even a civil conversation is not going to happen at noisebridge. It shouldn't happen at noisebridge. It's cool to try to convince people, but it still has an impact on the space.
 +
 
 +
Mitch: If it's between a fascist and Lizzie, I'll choose lizzie every day.
 +
 
 +
???: I let someone in who was from an Arizona hackerspace and made a snide comment about a protest that revealed a deeper set of beliefs. Our ocnversation started out as rational, but inevitably started disturbing others. It's difficult to do that.
 +
 
 +
Ryan: What we can do for the community at-large & make it so that we are making a positive 4 years. I definitely agree that there will be problems, but encrypting our computers is not the limit of what we could do. We could be a polling place. We need to solve Democratic turnout issues.
 +
   
 +
Vicky: Compassion, empathy, are the intelligence work necessary to combat against bigotry and hatred. I firmly believe that being just as extreme as they are will bring nothing but bad things. I honestly think that we need to approach things calmly and this is coming from someone with anxiety. But we need to approach it calmly and not just burn trump hats.
 +
 
 +
John: 501.3c should avoid positive politics. Political discussions get heated, people will rapidly realize no president can govern alone in the US. Calling for armed rebellion or hate is not going to solve anything. We need to avoid hatred and minimize drama, and everything is going to be ok-ish.
 +
 
 +
cowlicks: We're going to pass around a list. Add any political/activist organizations you know of.
 +
 
 +
trent: We are against violence and hate, organizationally. We should be more explicit that we are anti violence and anti hate
 +
 
 +
alex: people should be able to hack here and be free from listening to politics. It's really good and respectful to treat a political discussion like power tools or loud music. We have rooms with doors, you should feel free to ask people to move to those rooms when discussing. We've established a great range of opinions on how to deal with people expressing hate. Let's end the meeting at some point and let people privately get to talking about what they feel is the right thing to do politically.
  
If any important discussion happens, it should be happening after forward progress is made during consensus.
+
lizzie: Is there a limit as to what noisebridge can legally do?
 +
John: My understanding is that 5013c should avoid supporting a candidate in an election. They should spend no more than 5% of their budget on political advocacy.
 +
lizzie: I think noisebridge should be a space to have political discussion and political planning.
  
= End of Meeting =
+
John: noisebridge supports EFF, but supporting trump or clinton is outside what the community is about.
  
# Return the [[membership binder]] to its rightful location.
+
??: It
# Discuss any items for which there was not time during the meeting.
+
Resistance:
# Enjoy the company of your fellow hacker, robot, or robothacker.
+
Ryan: [expresses regret for not being active in protests]
  
== Note taker posts the notes ==
+
John: Noisebridge is a 501c3 and we're not supposed to engage in signs up...
# Clean and tidy the meeting notes including removing all these really verbose instructions.
 
# Fill out the short summary at the top listing just announcements, consensus items, discussion topics, and names of new members and philanthropists.
 
# Copy paste the notes to the [http://www.noisebridge.net//Next_meeting next meeting] page. (They will become [[Last meeting]] at midnight.)
 
# Email the meeting summary to [mailto:noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net?subject=MeetingNotes Noisebridge Discuss] and [mailto:noisebridge-announce@lists.noisebridge.net?subject=MeetingNotes Noisebridge Announce] lists.
 
# CC on the email treasurer@noisebridge.net and secretary@noisebridge.net if there are new members and philanthropists.
 
# Edit the [[Current_Consensus_Items|Current Consensus Items]] if anything is proposed for consensus next week.
 
# Edit the [[Consensus_Items_History|Consensus Items History]] if anything was reached consensus or failed to reach consensus this week.
 
  
== Fun things to do after ==
 
* Reprise of the [[Hackernationale]]. [This is anarchy - we do what the wiki says!]
 
* [[PGP|PGP Key Signing]] could happen now (if it doesn't happen '''before''' any given Meeting).  Ask others around the space or check the [[PGP|list]] to see who wants in on the action.
 
  
  
 
[[Category:Meeting Notes]]
 
[[Category:Meeting Notes]]

Latest revision as of 04:21, 23 November 2016

https://pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting

These are the notes from the The 437th Meeting of Noisebridge. Date: 2016-11-15 Note-taker: Alex Peake; Moderators: FIXME THEIR NAME HERE. One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary. [edit]Meeting Summary FIXME FILL OUT AT END OF MEETING AND SEND TO MAILING LIST TLDR what happened at the meeting: Announcements: Finances: New members: New philanthropists: Consensus Items: Discussion Items:

Introductions[edit]

  • Blake - hangs out here and does programming stuff fight facism
  • Steven - interested in ML and robotics.
  • Mitch - one of these "cofounder" guys (really we love him)
  • Juan - software stuff and programming and chatting and learning
  • Ryan Sternlicht- Noisebridge philanthropist, been coming here quite a while. Taking gamebridge class, planning to teach laser cutting techniques class in 2017
  • Steve - moved to san francisco interested in privacy and created Cypherpunks Write Code (https://www.meetup.com/Cypherpunks-Write-Code/) to direct more developer and designer effort toward privacy-protecting projects and to get input from activists and designers who want to help design/build encryption stuff.
  • Bana - Aspiring music producer and vocalist. First time here!
  • Ryan - make things an generate art
  • Mark - Game development and help out with unityversity classes on tuesdays, game hacking event once in awhile
  • Travis - stopped by for the last few years intermittently. occasional drop-in
  • Sally - from Luxembourg. Working to give startups funding from UN
  • Mark - first time, software dev, and electroniccs
  • Trent - teaches python monday nights at 7
  • Sam - moved to SF a month ago. Software developer by day and security person by non-day
  • Nate black - software guy. Interested in 3d printing, gamedev
  • Andy - EE first time at noisebridge. Came for gamebridge
  • David software eng, occasional hackerspace user and here for the biz
  • Frank - studying data communications and broadband tech
  • Nick - dev and uses the woodshop
  • Steve - theoretical physicist & software. been here 3-4 years
  • John - background in electronics and programming. been coming intermittently for years
  • quintessa - come around now and then, make music, sing and produce and make random MacGuyvery things
  • Alex - teaching gamebridge for the last few years. now it's a bootcamp !
  • Adam - mostly software, and interested in functional programming & logic
  • Zephyr - spams IRC for responsibly sourced computers (check out http://zv.github.io/buyers-guide.html ). "Just another programmer"
  • Lizzie - does computer security. been coming for about a month
  • Drew - interested in social and labor organizing, here to make friends!
  • Vicky - does things sometimes. coming for ~2 years
  • Emily? just moved here from france, doing a phd with materials and uses fablabs first time
  • emil - phd in machine learning first time
  • Taopa - recently second hand assistant harrasing us on IRC
  • Patrick - what do i do, less administrivia more hacking
  • don - I litterally just moved to the area over the weeekend, I'm a game dev. I love games. Loves gay stuff.
  • Jeremy - datascience, kaggle, audiobot on a pole. please help
  • matt - french, recently moved to SF, learning to code
  • Kevin -
  • Yana - (arrived after intros)
  • Felix - (arrived after intros)
  • Kevin - software engineer, here for unity development meeting, Participated in hackerspaces in NY
  • Francis - making time banking timespree system to help noisebridgers trade work on each others' projects. back from NY.
  • Mark - (arrived after intros)
  • Roger - (Arrived after intros)

Invite a knowledgeable volunteer to explain what Noisebridge is about[edit]

Alex - Noisebridge is a hackerspace, not a makerspace. We have an ethos, not just tools. Everything can be made, remade by everyone. This is a space to take part in the community, governed by all of us as a non-profit. This place is an extension of your ability to change the world. It's all editable. Steve - We have referred to ourselves at times as an anarchist hackerspace. In the context of what we'll discuss later that's important. One importance of anarchism speaks to us having a resistence meeting. Mitch - as an anarchist space we have no leaders but one rule. Does anyoen know what it is ? Everyone - ** Be excellent to each other **


Short announcements and events[edit]

  • Zephyr - my spam is that there are many manufacturers of electronics changing sourcing practices. There's ongoing conflict in regions where minerals used are mined. Often the proceeds go to supporting corrupt power schemes. I'm compiling a list of ethical computer manufacturers

[1]

  • Mitch - trump preparedness workshop next Tuesday at noisebridge. Come to learn about how to enhance your privacy. (Geared towards both non-technical people and technical people who want to improve their practices)
  • Steve - 3 weeks from now Cypherpunks Write Code (https://www.meetup.com/Cypherpunks-Write-Code/) will have their first hackathon. So if there are things that we need for resistence then we should collaborate.
  • Alex - laserbridge fundraiser was a success! Great game demos, dj'ing. If you want to help out w/ future parties come join our music group or make games!
  • Mitch - 3 day event in Oakland starting tomorrow: https://aspirationtech.org ; Event page: https://aspirationtech.org/events/devsummit16
  • Ryan - ill teach people how to get involved, making sure we'll go down the righ. Trump needs to succeed at creating JSON APIs for IOT platforms.I
  • Trent - python class is restarting next monday the 21st at 7 PM
  • Mark - spawing out of the laserbridge party, we want extend the game thing, maybe a 5MoF reboot.
  • Nick - 19th at meta, data viz thing hackathon

Safe Space[edit]

Noisebridge is a safe space. Invite a volunteer to describe what that means.

  • Blake - noisebridge should be a spafe space for oppressed people. In my opinon, don't advocate for Trump, it makes people feel unsafe
  • Alex - there is a process and way to make people feel safe. Guidelines for dealing with conflicts with people can be found at https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Manual and https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Conflict_Resolution
  • Mitch - if you don't feel safe, tell someone and we will collectively make it better. on going process.
  • Trent - diversity noisebridge working group talk. we need a champion who wants to understand or understands Noisebridge culture at large.

Participation[edit]

  • Steve - Noisebridge is open 10am-10pm during the day but that relies on people being here. But if you're coming here a while talk to a regular about getting an RFID tag for the door system which will allow you in during these hours without anyone else. These are anonymous and last 30 days. We cycle them out for social and safety reasons. Beyond that we have two tiers of participation and involemnet. You don't have to be either to use anything at noisebridge or take part.
  • Blake - anyone can attend or hold your own class if you'd like for free.
  • Sam - What's the deal w/ Slack?
  • Blake - Slack is group chat for people physically present in the space frequently. To get access you need to be coming around as much as you would to get an RFID token. Not something you get your first day. Generally the folks who give this out have a lot of discretion.
  • Mitch - once you're here a few times then it's easy to get both (RFID and on Slack)
  • Kevin - if we want to put a class together. what do we do?
  • Blake - put it on the wiki. email -announce -discuss, bring it up at a meeting.
  • Alex - there's a "HOW TO" page on the wiki about how to do this.
  • Mitch - it's super easy. The more cool events we have the better so just ask if you haev questions.
  • Alex - https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Hosting_an_Event

Philanthropy[edit]

  • Alex - there's a mural over there how much you love noisebridge and how much it costs. If you want to give noisebridge $40/month or $80/month regularly and have folks who want to vouch for you, you can do so tonight. You fill out a form, pledge to keep the space safe (close up when you leave etc...) and otherwise take care of the place. Justfind one member to vouch for you.

membership[edit]

  • Nick - membership comes after philanthropy. Usually by the time your membership comes up you're already kinda an "unofficial" member. People know you, you contribute things. The process is you filling out your membership application, getting 2 member sponsors, and having your application read out at 4 meetings. You get the power of concensus
  • Alex - two benefits: sponsoring new philanthropists, and also having a say in other people's membership applications
  • Trent - Philanthopy is not a strict stepping stone to being a member. They're separate ways to participate that are both equally valid.
  • ZV - 1835 days later.... he wants RFID god dammit


Financial Report[edit]

We have ~$60k+ in the bank. Figures incoming.

Consensus Items[edit]

  • Mitch - we make all the formal decisions through consensus, which means that all present members must agree with something for it to pass. Usually proposals change to accommodate people. We rarely use it, only for large things like when we moved into this space (funding, planning, etc...) It works by bringing an item to a meeting, it's discussed, and written down. Then next week it comes up for discussion again. If it remains unchanged and everyone agrees then we can pass the proposal. It must be stable for two weeks before this can happen. Objections must come with a counter-proposal for it to be considered. RE: "blocking". Blocks are super duper serious. They basically mean that you'll leave if it passes. They're generally considered the nuclear option and are symptomatic of bad things. The only exception is for new membership. Blocks without a counter-proposal are accepted here given the importance of membership & extending consensus.
  • Mitch - consensus is super slow, so we do most things through do-ocracy. Follow the one rule though: be excellent to each other, and if someone objects to your excellence you must be willing to undo it.
  • Don - can you apply for membership multiple times?
  • Mitch - yep totally ok.

Discussion Items[edit]

  • Mitch: I left the country 4 months ago and came back to amess. Three days the mess was decided to ensue for the next four years.

(On slack and in the space) A lot of people have a lot of strong emotions as aresult of the election going in various directions and some people are very scared, concerned, and not many people in our community (or our country) are happy about our country or optimistic about how things are going for the next 4 years.

During discussions, people are wondering things abstract specific and hypothetical about how we should respond if certain things happen.

It got emotional on slack and it isn't really a good way to discuss emotionally charged issues so we decided on slack to have an in-person meeting to discuss these things.

One issue: What if someone comes into NB with a trump T shirt. What do you do about that? Some people said kick them out. Other people said if we kick them out for having an opinion, that's not cool. I (Mitch) have an opinion about that opinion, I don't think that is an opinion in my opinion. Someone said if we're intolerant of intolerance we're intolerant. In my view I'm proud of being prejudiced against prejudiced people. We started Noisebridge with one rule be excellent. If someone violates and is willing to change behaviour excellently they can stay but if they're not willing they have to go faster than sooner. That's some of my opinion together with my perception of why we're having this meeting.

ZV: I think that is totally true and NB, if we're to perpetuate excellence, we must be intolerant of other intolerance. I think there's a divide about where we should stop people at the door regarding how strongly people express intolerant beliefs. I'm frightened when someone like Otter gets kicked out for saying mean things about techies. Sometimes someone posts saying someone said something mean on twitter suggesting they should be excluded. This oculd happen to any of us saying something that someone else disagrees with. We need to figure out where in the spectrum of belief we should accept people who say they voted for trump to the most extreme elements.

Blake: I understand what you're saying ZV, I think that figuring out the border about where we will or wont kick someone out is a cloudy thing and we have to rely on discretion of awesome people to figure it out, at the end of the day they'll need to make a judgement call about if they're making someone feel unsafe. Having a discussion about what they could or couldn't do is difficult. This already kind of happened and it already crossed a line and we asked someone to stop and they apologized and we're okay with them being here on that basis. That's what I had to say. I personally want to fight fascism and fuck Trump.


Kevin: What if someone is excellent here but has a hateful opinion voiced out in the world.

Blake: If someone's behaviour outside NB made me feel unsafe, I wouldn't want them to be here. If you were harassing people on the Internet and being quiet here, we would side-eye you wondering what you might do next.

Trent: We recently kicked out someone who was spreading anti-gay stuff on Twitter (at the space)

Steve (new cypherpunk): I understand why Trump seems like a fascist with a list of 200 reasons why. A week or so someone put a trump hat here and someone thought it was appropriate to steal his property and destroy it because he disagreed with it. I think that's not okay to destroy people's stuff. There's more to why people have certain beliefs and why the beliefs are held I don't know how much to get into it but there are people who are racist and feel unsafe around black people so if the only criteria is to say anything that makes someone feel unsafe. For example of criteria: Property destruction maybe not okay.

Blake: I destroyed the hat and I feel good about it. It was hung up like a display on our wall and up for hacking and that was no longer someone's private property it was propaganda. If I were an undocumented immigrant who came in I would feel this was an unwelcoming place so I got rid of it. What you said about safety is true, if someone felt unsafe around black people it is racist and unexcellent and we would ask that person to leave. We have discretion.

Mitch: To elaborate on that, it is totally fine to tell someone to leave if you feel unsafe at Noisebridge. We have our own culture here, one that we come together to create, and we have one rule purposefully subjective: be excellent to each other, we don't have an official list of examples, because they can quickly become rules (where we need exceptions, etc.) that can become dogmatic. It is continually talked about and our culture for 6 years or so has become strong. People who belong here are people who both benefit from and contribute to our community while following our one rule. People who belong and feel that they belong here are observing that one rule. If someone feels unsafe because someone is not following the be exellent rule, it is okay to ask them to change their behaviour or ask them to leave if they're unwilling to change. If necesary they should be asked to leave. In response to ZV, it isn't that someone said something mean on Twitter once, but they might be asked and given a chance to modify behaviour. Otter was given plenty of chances. She was being a total dick. She's never contributed to our community, even a little.

Frank: What was her cause? Mitch: She had her own version of fighting gentrification which was printing flyers saying "DIE TECHIE SCUM". ZV: She was really nasty, no doubt about it. On principle I agree she should have been kicked out of the space, I think that the discourse surrounding it was not what I would like to see. I think that the idea that we come to a consensus or ask someone to leave without an external reason just please come back next time. That is something so enshrined in Noisebridge is essential to NB. If someone harbors views counter to NB safety, they should be kicked out.

DON: If someone says something on social media, persona don't persist across social media platforms. What people post is in context of the platform and what you think your audience is. You're not the same person online as you are sitting face to face at the table or at home. Someone being nasty outside here may have a reason we don't understand. Good to get full situation before judging someone as nasty with a warning first.

Francis: Make sure someone isn't impersonating someone and faking their comments on a social media platform.

Mitch: It's not just one instance, people have a chance to change behaviour and if they can they can change and stay. If unwilling and unable...

Steve: Does wearing a trump shirt or hat here constitute disruptive behaviour mean someone should get kicked out?

Mitch: They have to be given a chance to change their behavior

Cryptosteve: Is wearing a shirt "behavior"?

Adam: The question about shirt: I think the person bringing a shirt here might be trolling and trolling is not excellent. On the other hand, while I agree about intolerance of intolerance I'm queasy about presumption that anyone supporting Trump is intolerant. I think its eveidence taht it is more likely but needs to be established.

Lizzie: At that point it is on them to make that clear if you wear a Trump shirt its yours to explain.

Adam: It is trolling to try to get a reaction at a space like this so there are differences of behaviour. Some people say "I voted for trump" as a discussion, other people wear things to troll.

Frank: Regards slogans, who has the right to own a slogan?

Trent: Don, the thing you brought up what is bad behaviour outside the space? The test becomes someone who uses a megaphone to espouse a hateful view and if they do that in public the consensus (small c) was no. Versus if they say something just as a personal statement that is less of an issue.

?? (Guy in the back with a top hat): I want to draw a line here... I think there's 2 kinds of trump supporters: There are those that believe that his policies make the country better, and there are those who actively want to make the lives of many americans worse and make them feel unsafe. If you feel unsafe, why? We can say that Trump support in this community is not acceptable, but Trump support*ers*?

Steve Wilcox: Also if someone comes into the space, we're not going to ban them without knowing their political views and knowing what they really think. IF they're promoting the sort of vitriolic propaganda that was part of the campaign... This is an open-minded space and we're not trying to ban discussion in the space but more or less to ban the kind of actions that marginalize people.

Cryptosteve: I get what [top hat] is saying... There's a principled libertarian view that argues that you should vote for who supports your economic best interests. I find this reprehensible, that you can ignore everything else. But it is a belief, and are we going to ban libertarians now? :mlady:

Steve Wilcox: This is not about someone being nieve, this is about someone who wants to actually talk about the state of affairs. But if someone pushes an ideology in the space about marginalizing people...

Cryptosteve: Mitch said someone in a Trump shirt is unwelcome.

Blake: If we asked someone wearing a Trump shirt for economic pragmantic reasons it goes beyond personal beliefs.

Cryptosteve: Even if they support trump for Economic reasons? If they clarify?

Blake: it isn't up to them that they're making people uncomfortable. If you're bothering people and saying "well I'm not intending to bother people, we say be considerate and if you make them upset by wearing the shirt... if someone walks in who is muslim or undocumented they are just going to see that and leave feeling uncomfortable..."

Trent: I...

Blake: I would ask them to be considerate and offer them another shirt to be able to participate without upsetting people.

??: If someone walked in w Trump shirt, a question would be "Do you consider yourself racist" it matters. Explaining this is a safe space for everybody if you're not transphobic or whatever. Be ready to answer questions if you do that.

Patrick: For people who've not been around NB, there's been emotional labor about this because NB doesn't have a police force. It is a community that puts effort into doing the right thing in personal conflicts. NB owes you nothing. This is a community space. Also Noisebridge is overly accomodative and late to react when it comes to changing someone's behavior. A lot of energy goes into resolution. This discussion has a lot of wheels spinning... Noisebridge does not run as a system.

Fineline Steve: we've all listened to what trump said. His words are explicitly racist, explicitly misogynist, explicitly violent. He takes back what he says every second. The damage has already been done. All of which are the antithesis of what Noisebridge is about. For somebody to say "for economic reasons" that they support Trump, implies that they either are blind to this violence or complicit. It's such a stupid position and so far from excellence that I do not think it belongs in the space.

I might say something like "Oh, Trump's a fascist". One thing about fascism is that fascists aren't interested in having a dialog, or how they can come to a compromise. They are very excited about using violence to get their way. It is not something that we can support, whether they are naive to it or not.

Lizzie agrees with there being no

Mark: I met a practical trumpist. I just want to say that it was an "interesting" conversation, but I would fully support any effort to ask him to leave.

Fineline steve: I appreciate the comment. I want to revise the statement. I don't want to imply that all trump supporters are fascist, but through their claiming of support, they are sending a message to people who know what fascism is, that they are complicit. They are supporting violence against people [who know what fascists are]

Mark: If you came up to us when we were having this discussion, I would feel fine helping you ask these people to leave

Chris: I agree (to a degree) that people cannot be reasoned with, but I think some people can be convinced by rational discussion. In this community, we should keep things to slack. I knew a hardcore fascist, and when I asked him why he believed what he did, and after a discussion, I was able to convince him that fascism was not the outlet he was looking for. Rational discussion helps tremendously

Fineline steve: I 98% agree. I don't think we should convince the guy here. Talk to them, instead of kicking out, but then if it doesn't work out, kick them out.

Francis: I want to split things up here: We have the sloganeering, the economic trump supporters, the question of whether this discussion belongs in the space, but personally I'd be troubled if we created a thoughtcrime out of Trump support. Wearing a shirt is less controversial. You're publicly showing that you support this racist guy. I'll say that we probably aren't talking about this thought/political test. But consider if we had a community member that was incredibly anti-abortion. What would we do then?

???: The best way to avoid political tests or anything like that is to stick to ground rules.

ZV: Blake and Patrick have excellent points as to how these rules are actually implemented. But there are people who know people who have been killed by drone strikes. The point being that <sorry guys I forgot the point help me plz>

Lizzie: Noisebridge is problably not the place to have a rational conversation with a fascist. I don't want to be here when it happens. It would probably ruin my day!

Trent: Clarify rational vs adversarial? Some conversations are constructive and some are adversarial.

Lizzie: Even a civil conversation is not going to happen at noisebridge. It shouldn't happen at noisebridge. It's cool to try to convince people, but it still has an impact on the space.

Mitch: If it's between a fascist and Lizzie, I'll choose lizzie every day.

???: I let someone in who was from an Arizona hackerspace and made a snide comment about a protest that revealed a deeper set of beliefs. Our ocnversation started out as rational, but inevitably started disturbing others. It's difficult to do that.

Ryan: What we can do for the community at-large & make it so that we are making a positive 4 years. I definitely agree that there will be problems, but encrypting our computers is not the limit of what we could do. We could be a polling place. We need to solve Democratic turnout issues.

Vicky: Compassion, empathy, are the intelligence work necessary to combat against bigotry and hatred. I firmly believe that being just as extreme as they are will bring nothing but bad things. I honestly think that we need to approach things calmly and this is coming from someone with anxiety. But we need to approach it calmly and not just burn trump hats.

John: 501.3c should avoid positive politics. Political discussions get heated, people will rapidly realize no president can govern alone in the US. Calling for armed rebellion or hate is not going to solve anything. We need to avoid hatred and minimize drama, and everything is going to be ok-ish.

cowlicks: We're going to pass around a list. Add any political/activist organizations you know of.

trent: We are against violence and hate, organizationally. We should be more explicit that we are anti violence and anti hate

alex: people should be able to hack here and be free from listening to politics. It's really good and respectful to treat a political discussion like power tools or loud music. We have rooms with doors, you should feel free to ask people to move to those rooms when discussing. We've established a great range of opinions on how to deal with people expressing hate. Let's end the meeting at some point and let people privately get to talking about what they feel is the right thing to do politically.

lizzie: Is there a limit as to what noisebridge can legally do? John: My understanding is that 5013c should avoid supporting a candidate in an election. They should spend no more than 5% of their budget on political advocacy. lizzie: I think noisebridge should be a space to have political discussion and political planning.

John: noisebridge supports EFF, but supporting trump or clinton is outside what the community is about.

??: It Resistance: Ryan: [expresses regret for not being active in protests]

John: Noisebridge is a 501c3 and we're not supposed to engage in signs up...