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Meeting Notes 2020 05 26
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=== Something Labs PPE project === '''Eli:''' Something Labs is a non-profit that has been working tirelessly to make protective equipment such as masks, face-shields, gowns, etc. for hospitals. Equipment that's necessary and in short supply. A few members of the NB community like Silver have been working with this org since the beginning. Together, we wrote up this proposal to collaborate with them to enable them to keep doing good work. '''Silver:''' I've been working with Something Labs since the pandemic started. I've been doing assembly on PAPR masks for the last two months; we've made over 12,000. We rotate who's in the space, but there's something like 25 people in the loop. Pretty autonomous. One thing we take very seriously is safety protocols. It would be self-defeating to make PPE while not practicing safety protocols. I also make masks for unhoused folks out of Omni Commons. Have made over 400. We implemented safety protocols at Omni Commons. It's constantly changing as we follow the science. Been watching how office spaces are keeping themselves safe as places reopen. It's important to continue this work and we could do this at NB in a safe manner. I know Zach was worried random volunteers would come in with cabin fever, but we wouldn't let just anyone join just because they feel like it; there's training, including safety protocols, washing every hour, cleanliness, keeping mask and gloves on. I think this is such an important job and am trying my best to accommodate concerns, but I'm also doing 10 hours/day of PPE work making stuff like that. I'd like to hear from Zach, who's worked on PAPR equipment before, how we can keep safe while working on stuff. '''Eli:''' The proposal is to allow this group to use a small amount of our space as mfring space to make PAPR shields. They have a shortage of space in which to make these supplies. '''Zach:''' Thanks for the background, Eli and Silver. We talked about this at length at the last meeting. I posted on the Discuss; I'll try to put the link in the chat, what my concerns were: https://discuss.noisebridge.info/t/producing-more-ppe-to-fight-covid-19/1740/4 I'm immunosuppressed, have disabilities. I worked on a PAPR design myself, very passionate about making PPE. We're all on the same page, want to help in the pandemic. My concern is that some people who want to help are causing more harm than good. I can give examples; I've seen it many times. I've seen non-profits that are exploiting people during the crisis without transparency on what products are being sold for what to whom. You can be a 'non-profit' and still make a lot of money. I'm not saying that's the case here, but we had some questions: * funding * what's being sold * who's being sold to These questions are important to know if NB is to be used to produce anything. It's a week later and these answers have not been provided AFAIK. '''Silver:''' It's not being sold. They're being given to hospitals, and these are open-source designs which we could make ourselves and give directly to hospitals without involving Something Labs. '''Zach:''' The other concern from last week was safety. I said last week that the decisions around safety should come from people at risk, first responders, etc. Let's talk to the people receiving this equipment and get them to visit the space and get their opinion on how safe we are, how many people should be here, etc. I think having six people at a time is super-unsafe to an incredible degree. We don't have a way to enforce how frequently surfaces are being cleaned. We have to be conscious, because we want to do good things and help people, but there's some real consequences if we risk spreading the virus. If this is free, that's good to know; if that's in writing somewhere, that'd be helpful, as I haven't seen that. If anyone wants to talk about that idea to reach out to medical professionals for tips on how to keep the space safe. They have more experience than we do. Do we go to someone who's a good cook and ask if something is a good circuit board? '''Silver:''' Literally everything I do is make PPE. I just assume the best of folks. I work with Something Labs because Sam lives with a nurse who would come home with fucked-up PPE. I can ask her to come, because she's been helping advise on this project. I'd like to offer something rather than just draw on her free time, but she has approved the designs we've been working on and has been delivering them to hospitals herself. '''ludae:''' I'm also involved in the project. I also can attest to it from my subjective opinion. They're, as a group, dedicated to the cause of getting R down. From what I understand, it's a hybrid model where a lot of masks are donated, but they have tried to make deals with certain hospitals. We've talked to UCSF, Kaiser, etc., to pay at cost, or to pay a bit more so we can donate to other hospitals that can't afford them. Also, some of the bigger hospitals we haven't been selling them at cost because of red tape, so they've literally been sneaked in because the staff would prefer this to nothing. A lot of the money is coming from - I forget the grant, but it's a PPE community production grant that's designed to put money into this sort of thing. There's also a Kickstarter. Most of the engineers work without pay on the project. Some folks who do labor get reimbursed if it's really repetitive work. There's a blog on somethinglabs dot org that's really transparent. It's something from nothing, so it's trying to scale as quick as possible but also do itself out of a job as quick as possible. Its mission is solved because it's a stopgap mission. I'm also available to talk to anybody about it directly. A good way to address the concerns over something like this may be to try to report it to the accountant and see if we can get John's take on it. Sorry we haven't done that yet. I'm advocating for the project. '''x:''' Who of the project folks are available on Slack and/or Discuss? '''Silver:''' I'm on Slack. '''Lu dae:''' I'm on Slack as luda3. I just got on Discuss as luda. '''Silver:''' I'm Himalayaz. '''da vid''': This effort will probably have a lot more process and safety concern than what's currently happening in the space. Like it or not, there is stuff happening in the space. This may actually add process and safety that might not exist currently. It's great to get oversight from UCSF or anyone else to look over the technique that's being used or is supposed to be used. This could be an improvement ''because'' there is more concern. '''tim:''' Is this use covered by our insurance? There's three things that I'm hearing, all around liability. There are Board members who are liable for NB and don't like NB being open during SIP, so I need people to know what the insurance policy covers. And then it comes down to what's the use and what's Something Labs, and can they send us a letterhead to us and the landlord? The landlord might actually ask them to move into the second-floor space, which is vacant, and get a tax break that way. You could probably talk to UCSF about bio safety level and getting guidance on how to do this right. "The world has turned into a BSL level 3 or 4 lab." If someone could tell me the liability and what the org's financials are, I'd consense to it. '''Silver:''' The guy who founded this doesn't run businesses or non-profits, he just wanted to do something. I'm also just trying to step up. All the funding has been coming mainly from crowdsourcing; no financials coming from profits or selling. I'm happy, maybe NB should just take over producing their designs. Laser-cut vinyl, continue production as long as needed. '''tim:''' Is it a sole proprietor, or? '''bfb:''' It's a financial sponsorship. I posted that document. '''tim:''' Oh, I know what that is. They may even have their own insurance, which is good. Gotta make sure there's no giant liability hole; that's it. '''Eli:''' What specifically is the paperwork you need to see? '''tim:''' Are they incorporated as a California non-profit? Do they have an EIN? Can we see letterhead from someone with control over that EIN? Do they have insurance that would cover us? I want to confirm that our insurance covers this; it's almost outside of what we do. Financial statement, even just an Excel sheet. Some idea of what this organization is. '''x:''' Are you representing Something Labs? '''lu dae:''' We're NB community members who've become involved with the Something Labs project. We were looking at finding another space because the space we had wasn't available anymore. It came to mind that NB and Omni Commons could be really great spaces, aligned with the approach, and Sam, the guy who started it, who's an Exploratorium engineer along with most of the engineers. The logistical side of anarchy times making PPE equipment adds to the complication, but it seems like a potentially interesting crossover. '''bfb:''' I just want to add my voice in support of this project. From what I can tell, NB is currently operating under the auspices of having one person at a time keeping watch. Others have suggested there are other activities happening beyond keeping watch. From my POV, we have keeping watch and so I see the proposal by Eli, Silver, and Kinnard as a next step for how we continue to utilize the meatspace while doing so safely and contributing positively to those in need during the pandemic. I want to call out that Silver has written an extensive safety protocol. '''Silver:''' [somebody] helped out with that. '''bfb:''' As I read it, it's an extension of what's been thought through for Keeping Watch. I want to clarify that three hours ago, Eli linked the fiscal sponsorship agreement paperwork. From what I can tell, it's a project, not a non-profit itself, sponsored by the Something Good Fund, which is a registered non-profit. I posted the EIN in the chat. Seems like the team have been responsive to the legitimate concerns that have been expressed. There is a healthy back-and-forth, and this is a good way to set up NB for transition into the uncertain future ahead of us, including how to move safely in these times. I just don't want to see NB putting in too many hurdles, like bringing in doctors like we wouldn't ordinarily do, including for things like moving. I wouldn't want to hold this project to too high a standard. '''x:''' Suggest continuing this to another meeting and continuing the discussion in the meantime. '''Eli:''' I do have to disagree because this PPE project is time-sensitive. They've been waiting a week now. We could go forward with it as a small-c consensus item. '''x:''' Are there any Members who would block? '''Zach:''' There's a bunch of problems with this. '''x:''' I realize big-C Consensus takes time and this is time-sensitive. '''pyconaut:''' There's two different discussions: one on this project, and one on safety in the space on how we do any project like this. I don't think anyone has a problem with making PPE; I think the safety part of it does require big-C, whereas the project itself could be small-C. It also ties into if we're moving or not; if we're moving, that changes this whole conversation in both good and bad ways. My comment would be: What if we move? Could we have the second floor just be locked off and used for PPE for 2-3 months? Nothing but the mfring of PPE, such that we can make sure it's up to a high standard of safety, security, and accountability, which I don't think is actually all that doable in our current space because of how messy it is, esp. if we're moving? '''x:''' tim in chat has expressed a block around assembly. Can you clarify that? '''tim:''' Accountability to the board is my main concern. There's four people who could lose their assets on anything particularly shitty that goes on in NB. Board members don't have too much power other than resigning when there's too much liability. Get our insurance to sign off on it and I have no problems; it's a great project. It's volunteers risking their livelihoods to make rad shit at NB. '''x:''' Recognizing the block, are you open to continuing that conversation? '''tim:''' We expressly decided not to have more than one person in NB. '''Kinnard:''' When we have express requests from hospitals, I think that if we're meeting those requirements, it's not necessary to bring in a doctor or nurse because they know what they need in the request. When we're responding to requests in a crisis, I think we're protected under Good Samaritan laws. Don't think there's a large material risk to the Board compared to anything else NB does. It'd be beyond absurd if NB were sued because people were making PPE to the standard of hospitals. '''tim:''' That's not my concern. '''Kinnard:''' The space has only been open for essential infrastructure activity. That's why you see people posting on Slack 'can someone let me in?'. '''x:''' My understanding of our current consensus is we're at ''minimum'' operation, including only allowing access to lockers, cleaning, moving. '''Kinnard:''' My understanding was that we had little-c consensus on conducting essential infrastructure projects. '''x:''' My understanding was that was specifically for the UCSF project that has now concluded. '''tim:''' I made it clear. I want to know what the insurance says. That's my only requirement for this block. '''Silver:''' OK, Tim, I will take on that responsibility. '''Zach:''' Can we follow stack? '''Zach:''' I want to thank Tim for speaking up and protecting Board members. It's a very important concern. We all share the urgency and the good deed and hard work that people are volunteering to do, I want to acknowledge that. We appreciate people who are doing good things for the community. It's also important how we proceed with things. I want to respond to what bfb said: There are lives at stake when you don't take proper precautions. There's a difference between making handbags during normal times and making PPE to fight a virus that's spreading exponentially. I mentioned this in the chat: We haven't seen any kind of financial agreement from the non-profit. We saw the thing where Something Labs has funding from this other org. Silver says it's all free; lu dae says it's a hybrid. Is it going to hospitals or is it going to homeless people, communities of color, the actual most vulnerable populations? I also wanted to respond to the idea that it'd be a huge imposition to ask a HCW to check out NB. I think that isn't a big ask to ask if there's someone to check out our space. I think there's a HCW who would help with that. I'm supportive, but I want to make sure proper precautions are taken. You don't want to do more harm than good and spread this virus around. There is this activity in the space when the space was voted to be closed? I'm concerned to hear that. I don't know my Membership status since the elevator hasn't worked and I've been unable to access the space, but I would block. '''Silver:''' The reason why the head of Something Labs is not here, I'm trying to expand, this doesn't have to be Something Labs. We can keep doing this. If you want a nurse to check out the space, I don't know if they consult for mfring companies and would be able to speak to that. I just want to open up the idea of #1 continuing this type of work at NB, #2 working with other makers. I'm also part of the moving group and want to make it as smooth and safe as possible. '''Zach:''' Do we have any consensus on the number of people who can be in the space at any point? '''Kinnard:''' No consensus on that exactly, but we've been trying to keep the number under the guidances of the City over the past several months. The guidances have changed, relaxed significantly, but in general, people have tried to keep the number under four. '''Gabriel:''' On the specific request to have a HCW check out the space, that's not their jobs. The job of public health guidelines is to lay out the guidelines under which businesses are allowed to operate, and those have been relaxed to the point that restaurants are opening. I understand the concern of tim wanting to ensure Board members aren't on the hook, but asking a HCW to come in is a much bigger hurdle than we need to put in the way of formalizing work that's already going on in NB. '''x:''' There is a hard block on the table. This item cannot move forward right now. Moving the stack to discussion item so we can take on the other consensus items this week.
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