Meeting Notes 2023 03 14

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These are the notes from the The 716th Meeting of Noisebridge.

Date: 2023_03_14

Previous Meeting

Next Meeting

Note-takers: Peter

Moderators: Loren

NOTE: Consider turning off fridge for the duration of the meeting. It is very loud and sometimes prevents people on video conference from hearing those in the space.

  • One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.

Meeting Summary[edit | edit source]


TLDR what happened at the meeting:

  • Fundraising Update
  • Announcements:
  • Finances:
  • New members:
  • New philanthropists:
  • Consensus Items:
  • Discussion Items:

Introductions[edit | edit source]

  • Corey: (he/him) Teach people about robots. Here to talk about garbage removale. First or second week of april.
  • Peter - software engineer, like working on hardware stuff too. around 6 years
  • Justin- hardware guy- work on crazy shit such as lazer bongs and space tanks
  • Chris -
  • Loren - rack,
  • Max- (he/him) mostly woodworking, here to talk about garbage removale and woodworking
  • Sam - Unreal engine on thursday nights, getting into cnc stuff lately
  • Joyce- Industrial designer
  • TJ - ai meetup
  • Matt - coming for a few months, wants to be associate member
  • Ellie (sp) - around a few months, dabble in AI/ML, GeoSpatial. associate member interest
  • Tyler - used to come a lot, finance stuff, all sorts of crazy stuff, comes back to hack on occasional projects
  • Alex - goes to school currently, interested in a lot of projects school doesnt have space for
  • Devin - software engineer, been in the area for 12 years recently heard about the space and wants to learn more about woodworking
  • Charlie (he/him) sf city college student, cermacist/photography. coming to noisebrige for a few months now, here to learn more about the space
  • michelle - coming to the space for a few months, former tech worker / current ethnographer, uses the space for sewing room / running the quilt workshop
  • Nemo / Ian - also present
  • Emeline - treasurer

Short announcements and events[edit | edit source]

Loren - join discord if youre not already a part


Woodshop, Sunday, 4pm - woodshop cleanup.

Excellence[edit | edit source]

Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.

(What does that mean? Please see our page on excellence!

Everyone is expected to follow the Anti-Harassment Policy, please familiarize yourself with it.) TWO MINUTES MAX

Guilds[edit | edit source]

  • What are guilds - briefly describe (much like the previous section on "Excellence")

AI Guild[edit | edit source]

tj - 8 pm wednesday come to our meetups

tj - people who are interested in a certain domain are interested in taking care of that space.

Woodshop guild[edit | edit source]

issues with keeping the space clean/safe, trying to gain momentum on who is wanting to join the guild and discuss ways to keep the woodshop excellent. Hopefully having a meeting soon about woodshop

Coming in on Saturdays to clean the shop. Active.

New Members/Associate Members[edit | edit source]

What are they? Is anyone trying to become a Member or Associate Member? If not move on. No long discussions.

Michelle might be interested Emeline said she might sponser her

What is the preferred method of donation? Patreon has a network effect but takes 10%. probably whatevers easiest. See #finance-wg

Tj is sponsering both Ellie and Matt.

Tyler is sponsering Devin.

Matthew (Discord @mathius) (Sam

Fundraising Update[edit | edit source]

Big C Consensus Items[edit | edit source]

Nobody likes 3 hour meetings, only explain if people ask.

Consensus Items [edit | edit source]

Only for talking about Big C consensus items, small c consensus items should be discussed with people at the space at the time of the change/new item.

Discussion[edit | edit source]

Discussion Item 1[edit | edit source]

dna - I can't make tonight but worth encouraging or talking about events or social media posts during GDC next week? I know we have that Extra Lives live action RPG happening and it seems very popular, could be a great chance to welcome more visitors (and maybe even get some donations) to Noisebridge

Discussion Item 2[edit | edit source]

Ceramics We have a kiln. It wants use! We have a wheel, we have 2 kilns. Same power cord as for welder (no, we have a second)

Start a guild?

ceramic hexagons so you can stack them and fire more than one at the same time

If interested, talk to @jd/@jellydonut (discord)

Discussion Item 3[edit | edit source]

Trash disposal in woodshop

Proposing to bring trash this Saturday to the dump, but may need to hold up

jd - don't hesitate to throw away

  • Everyone agrees*

Recycling wood -- needs to clear of all nails

Max - I will haul as much wood as possible to the dump, any advice -- lmk! sam - they'll take the corolla lol Matt - How does price compare to Uhaul in the afternoon

Max - We already have corey, so bring more woodshop

Loren - No objections for reimbursement for dump?

Loren - Small spending is ok (1% of total month)

FYI - people steal trash cans. We're supposed to have 6.

Loren - Let's make throwing away stuff easier!

Corey - I'll see what I can do re - wood free recycling service

  • pushed to Discord* / don't stop clean.

Discussion Item 4[edit | edit source]

Regarding recent 5150 call.

  • JLB: It's unexcellent to bring police officers into the space

Police were not called. Police allowed to enter the space. In front yard, were let into the gate.

  • Said on crisis call, if police with do not respond.

"if we need to remove someone from your business". Work toward

  • Sam: proposal, if crisis team is called (and police too). If you don't want to interact with them. Invite people to leave and not return, give people an opportunity to leave without calling police.
  • TJ: I may have been a bit misleading w/ the topic. The issue is not that services were called, its that police decided to crash the party. It was mostly handled excellently, except the only questionable thing that happened is that the police were allowed to enter the gate.
  • John: as long as we have clear agreement that we're stopping police at the gate. all god.
  • Chris: problem w/ the police is that fence is incomplete. They have every right to come inside because that thing is not a completely enlcosed enclosure. It has to be totally enclosed to be called a "private area", legally speaking.
  • Mark: I will talk to the person who let them in to the gate about what they did. Hopefully they wont do it again.
  • JD: As I understand the situation was serious, and if we make a blanket statement that police are NEVER allowed in, we may potentially be shooting ourselves in the foot. We need to be conscious of the totality of the individual circumstances each time in order to make good decisions about what to allow.
  • T: This could be overpreparing for a situation that maynever happen tbh. No one will consult the wiki about our protocol in the event of an immediate/imminent safety threat.
  • TJ: Lets agree that emergency services being allowed in was a good idea. But do we explicitly have to say no cops? Or in certain situations is it useful?
  • J: Only if there is a weaponweilding maniac. Only scenario.
  • John: Whatever we do lets keep it simple so ppl remember it.
  • Farley: I volunteer to add some wording to the wiki covering this.

Discussion Item 5[edit | edit source]

Donations. request - $500 / mo for sewing.

Corey: Put up signage, that every day/week NB costs so much. Same for class. $20/class. Need to put value on Noisebridge's time. Membership is one thing, use of space is taking advantage of cost Tyler: Just pass this around at the beginning of class

JD: Exactly what I do. $20 suggested donation, $15 / hour for using the laser. QR codes, bc putting cash into coffee can isn't secure. Use QR code, don't care if issues. My issue is with charging for meetup signups. Double edged sword. On one hand, don't turn away people for lack of funds. Because it's on Meetup, we get a bunch of casuals. And then they don't put money down, so they don't show up. Every sunday at 2 PM, idk who I'll be teaching / serious about the class / signed up online. Even if they signed up on a whim. Sticky whicket. Remind people to donate Tyler: Charging will just lower class attendance JD: Do we charge full price, or $5 to reserve a slot farley: I'm actually paying to make signs : Noisebridge has X months left (18-24) We need X more Members to break even. More actionable to get Membership, rather than charge for classes. Why are we debating charging for classes? Let's do it Charlie: Couldn't hear last few minutes. something I was thinking, Tying back to ceramics discussion, I am interested in ceramics. When it comes to cost of that, something tht came to mind is potentially doing fundraising using that, making things for sale or for suggested donation/ for the classes. Once ceramics is up and running, we can take a stab at that as well. I'd be happy to do an auction or sale, donate some of my own artwork. I'd to be involved in whatever going forward.

TJ: Biggest argument against doing required payment is: my meetup is driven via a collaborative show-and-tell. Doesnt mix well with any kind of payment setup. We wont ask ppl to pay anything.

jvol: Seems like a fairly simple solutio might be: charge for class. Don't charge for meetup.

sam: I like the idea of getting more money in, its positive as a whole. We become open up to being liabile for fraud though should people pay for things, not show up and then we dont refund them. We just need to start thinking about process more.

emeline: Meetup allows reimbursement in the case that no one shows up. Charging for reducing attendance -- we've actually had a longer waitlist.

max: does meetup support sliding scale payments?

emeline: We set fee at lower end of donation scale. We had people show up despite having waitlist

farley: Laser itself is a resource, and requires cost. Don't worry about sliding scales for both

jvol: 3 things:

   1. I like the idea just charging low-end upfront in order to register.
   2. Some of these classes, especially woodshop for instance, i see safety things that scare me. Maybe there should be a distinction between more advanced things. We need to be careful. Basic safety classes should be free or maybe very very low.

Mark: What I am hearing is that a formal designation is a solution to the problem that could help us.

TJ: The idea we are putting forward is that "some events at NB can be charged for"?

No one disagees

charlie: something that came to mind. when someone was talking about not wanting ppl to not have access to certain classes, it reminded me of something from my highschool - we had thing called "the angel fund" set aside to cover the cost of certain trips/uniforms, etc for students who couldn't afford them. Wondering if we could implement some such analogue.

money set aside to cover costs for people who can't afford it -- i.e. safety classes could be sponsored by a fund.

excellent idea.

Discussion Item 6[edit | edit source]

(Chris - @yogic) Committee

We should form committees for different things. Fundraising, safety, etc.

Sam - These are distinct from guilds, in that they are short term. Will dissolve once done

Mark - Context - we've done that before -- working groups. They did quickly form and quickly dissipate

Talk to Chris if you want to start a fundraising group!

discussion Item 6 =[edit | edit source]

I (farley) would like to discuss that we do not encourage anonimous painting of the walls. The community cant consens with an anonymous party. Paint the walls, spraypaint is fine, but dont do it anonymously. Sign your name, tell people, take responsibility. specifically @moof and music room related folks stop encouraging anonymous tags. I can update the wiki if the community is agreeable.

jvol: we dont have time to debate what art is. i propose a solution to farley's objection. let's put a spot on discord or wherever, some notes around that say people should put up notes that say "hey this is my thing". encourage ppl to get involved.

jlb: the ability to anonymously do things at the space is one of the core freedoms of the space I think. I think it is unexcellent to force ppl to put their names on something they did.

Farley: its about taking ownership of what you do at NB. it is unexcellent to do otherwise.

TJ: I do agree with getting consent by letting ppl know what you are doing. More importantly, what are we going to do next time something like this happens? (We're just establishing cultural norms rn)

JD: We are a community, all of us in this room. We work on consensus. That means an individual can not unilaterally override a bunc of people in the room by doing something they think is uncool.

Max: clarifying q: are you asking to specify that we shouldn't be tagging anywhere? or just anywhere except a designated space like the music room?

Farley: All I am asking for is for ppl to own up to what they do. I don't care about the spray paint, I care about people taking responsibility for things.

Jams: I will reiterate on the ownership point. Ppl should speak up when asked about whether they did something.

Farley: you are right, we should not discourage art of any kind and we should be careful how we word it to ppl.

john: I don't really showcase much I make here, but you are welcome to say to me "hey john that particular piece is unexcellent!" or whatever

JD: if you do something anonymously, expect it to be painted over. If you dont take ownership over something, don't expect it to last long.

TJ: the tag doesn't give us any clue on how to contact the person. I assume thats what is meant by "anonymously"

And, sure, we can do-ocratically undo excellent things, but that is totally how we burn out ppl who want to actually take care of the space. They are so busy taking care of others' messes they have no time to do what they actually want to do.

Max: I feel like the problem is we're debating intention over the art. This isn't graffiti, this is *art* Farley: Benefits of doing something anonymously, not the validity of the art. I have re-clarified this a bunch of times already here.

sam: I think we have wonderful art on front door. But there is name for reaching out and contacting anonymously.

Farley: I'm talking about

jams: We do a lot of stuff anonymously. We clean toilets anonymously, do stuff anonymously. Do-ocratically, you want to talk to person Farley: Should not change the space anonymously.

JLB: I don't think painting the walls qualifies as "changing the space".

jvol: It looks to me that we have two really different views on what is excellent in terms of what is Excellent. Doesn't look like we could get to an agreement. Make signs encouraging people to take ownership of their work could go some way to alleviating tension.

Corey: All I want to say is when making changes, our measure isn't excellent. Best way to handle this, is to challenge people to know if their contribution is excellent. Y2K is excellent, unexcellent is the poster with eyes out. Har to argue that we are an art space when all of our walls are blank. Let's encourage art, but always challenge its excellence.

JD: What we are bumping up against is a difference between consensus and do-ocracy. Do-ocracy means no consensus. When dealing with notion of anonymity, regardless of how rest of community, we are flying in the face of consensus.

TJ: I agree with what JD says. We may be at an impasse. Perhaps we can discuss maybe the idea of asking ppl to create some sort of nym to be contacted via so it can remain anonymous? We could argue about this all night. But perhaps that could be some kind of compromise.

Chris: I did the NB + anarchy sign in the hackitorium. We were covering up the y2k.

ppl: ty for being excellent and taking ownership of it and explaining it.

jvol: Small-c consensus of whoever is there. It seems to work out.

Farley: little-c without involving the rest of the community is unexcellent though.

Jams: I think its the people you are effecting. Sometimes it is the whole community.

TJ: Because we have talked about this a lot, lets stick with the do-ocracy + small-c for now but encourage reach-outs/ some way to contact you about yourstuff you have done

Mark: The best we can do is encourage people to people to reach out with a way to contact them. Some people will not, out of anxiety or fear of repurcussions. People want to remain off of it. Those people cannot be helped, it is unexcellent. We want to assume people are excellent, but cannot coerce people. Call people on the act.

Direct response : Paint police?

Side note: we should have two note-takers. 

Join in on the notepad and take notes Conversation can't happen without notes

Mark: you're asking on redefining what is excellent and what isn't

Farley: Yes

Mark: Is it to write it out in clear terms

Farley: I'll write it in the wiki and on discussion items

Mark: Does anyone disagree, that : It is Excellent to put alongside art with a point of contact, it is Unexcellent to not take responsibility for art that you have done. We have now publicly stated that, put it in writing

JLB: I object. I don't think it is unexcellent to make awesome change and not sign it.

Mark: Then we need to keep working on it

jams: It's about having accountability for projects that you do. More broadly applicable than one thing.

Mark: How can we have accountability?

jams: Write you name on piece, owning it in a meeting

Chris: What about anonymous sign in sheets? You go in there and sign what you did on the wall

Mark : We need to reach a better agreement

jams : I'll help with wording

Farley : It's not about wording, it's about accountability. Just own up to it if you did it. Don't lie about it.

JLB: Lying is unexcellent, that's it.

Farley: No tracking or anything. Don't make changes to the space and say you didn't do it.

JLB: When I came to the space, what I was told was about do-ocracy and consensus. Do-ocracy was "if you want to spray paint walls purple, do it" . Table saw though requires consensus. Spray paint *is* do-ocracy. No signing. No telling anyone

Mark: Wording about accountability.

Farley: Quibble with wording about only being honest when asked. I'm asking for opinions and stating my own. If you think fucking with the space anonymou

TJ: Yes in that kind of space, yes there are people who could do good things anonymously, but a much higher risk of people getting away with doing bad things.

JLB: Freedom is risky.

TJ: I'm just saying there are concerns about potential ways for people to make disagreeable changes to the space.

Jams: People have said things implying malicious intent

Farley: How coudl the community consent with anonymity.

JD : This is a clashing thing

jams: True Excellence is do-ocracy first with consensus later Moving stuff downstairs, made a big dust cloud. Do-ocratically did it, but affected a lot of people negatively.

Not excellent to lie.

jvol: do-ocracy. consensus. it'll have to ebb and flow a bit.

corey: we were talking earlier about the idea of the ebb and flow. I think we can agree that if someone leaves a defacement and then someone paints over it, that THAT is not consensus. If someone then tags over it again, that is beyond the pale of "just creating art".

jvol: quesiton: if we have a table-moving war, is that different from doing that but with tagging?

corey: if that kind of behavior is happening, then someone should ask for consensus.

mark: i believe farley was trying to do that here tonight.

Farley: I am not asking for consensus, but just wanted to have a discussion.

Do-ocratic Task Board[edit | edit source]

Participation also means doing stuff to contribute to the space. Propose new tasks or pick some tasks from Github, from what needs to be done around you, or whatever, and see if someone will sign up to work on that task. Anyone can sign up and it's a great way to show you are contributing!

End of Meeting[edit | edit source]