[Noisebridge-discuss] 2169 Mission status

jim jim at well.com
Mon Jul 20 16:48:23 PDT 2009

   my take is that you're overconcerned. concern is good. 
please consider the following points wrt the "over" part. 
   the space as is is usable. the improvements we want 
are modest: 

* possibly re-do the floors (about $1000 to $1500 
assuming we do the labor), no permits are required. 
   the purpose is to sand the grime off the surface, 
fill holes and cracks, and seal it to facilitate 
reasonable cleaning of spills and other debris (and 
to ensure such does not fall through to the second 
floor and possibly cause damage and complicated 
neighbor relations). 
$1500 high side. 

* minimal electrical involves replacing old and 
defective receptacles and switches, possibly moving 
or replacing a light fixture or two, removing or 
replacing circuit breakers that are mismatched to 
the wires they control. cost may be less than $100, 
certainly less than $500. all of this is handyman work, 
no permits are required. 
$500 high side. 

* an improved or new toilet room, possibly with a 
shower, is a matter of framing, rocking, and painting 
non-load bearing walls as well as extending water 
and drain pipes, possibly purchasing a new toilet, 
and possibly adding an on-demand water heater. wood, 
rock, mud, paint will be about $300; door with frame 
is about $200; pipes will be about $200; toilet is 
about $300; sink with faucets are about $200; 
on-demand water heater is a little under $1000; labor 
will be on the order of $2000 to $3000. 
   a shower stall costs roughly $500, installation 
requires water supply and drainage pipes with faucet, 
mixer, and head, another $500. labor will be from 
$1000 to $2000. 
   permits are required for pipe work, possibly for 
walls and door. 
   our estimates of about $6000 seem realistic. 
$8200 high side. 

* where some have used the word "kitchen", there is 
some agreement to purchase a used stainless steel 
combination dual sink and counter unit. my 
inexperienced guess is about $1000 (seems a little 
high to me, do others know better?) for the unit. 
labor is minimal: go get it, bring it in, screw it 
down to the floor. do not use the word "kitchen". 
   it will require water supply and drainage pipes 
to be joined to the existing plumbing in one of the 
toilet rooms. labor should be under $1000. permits 
are required for pipe work. 
$2000 high side. 

overall: $12200 high side. 

   The most critical part is to find a licensed plumber 
who is available to do all the plumbing work within our 
(reasonable) timeframe (could be in september or even 
later as far as our needs go). 

   about me: my experience includes having worked as an 
electrician and as a painter in san francisco, been an 
apartment manager, lived in a community warehouse, owned 
and renovated my own home in san francisco. 
   i've personally done just about all the work described 
above (including framing, rocking, painting, installing 
doors, finishing floors, removing and installing linoleum 
flooring, electrical galore, installing sinks and toilets 
to include faucets and both water supply and drainage 
pipes. i have several years' work experience on job sites, 
licensed and otherwise, and have pulled permits and passed 
   my weakest areas are tiling, roofing, and concrete 
   there are several other members of noisebridge who have 
similar or more extensive experience than i. 

   as to blocking to force a detailed budget, do due 
diligence yourself as to understanding what is a reasonable 
budget. with the exception of one city in china built over 
1000 years ago, there has been no plan or budget that has 
proved entirely accurate. the greater the detail, the more 
the variance from final reality. 
   my claim is that what i've detailed above is a 
reasonable budget, possibly excepting my guess as to the 
cost of the stainless steel combination dual sink and 
counter. note that the estimates assume we do the labor 
of floor finishing, electrical, and installing a sink 
contraption (none of that work requires permits). note also 
that much of the work described above can be deferred with 
little adverse affect on our ability to use the space. 


On Mon, 2009-07-20 at 14:41 -0700, Matt Peterson wrote:
> Ok, my big concern is the budget.  I hate to come across as the party  
> pooper here.  It's well known that house remodels and upgrades run  
> over budget, particularly for newbies in this realm - I could only  
> imagine commercial refurbs requiring even more knowledge.  Do we have  
> members or friends with intimate knowledge of the permitting process,  
> contractor negotiation, parts sourcing, etc (ideally ones willing to  
> step up and lead this)?  Sai had valid points in this realm at the  
> last meeting, however the overall excitement overruled him repeatedly  
> from diving into this.
> I plan to block unless a detailed budget is published and agreed  
> upon.  Our treasurer should be presenting data that shows our / 
> existing/ membership base allows us to afford this space for some time  
> PLUS additional surplus from the recent fundraising round.  Let's get  
> actual quotes from contractors.  Hand waving and "just trust us" isn't  
> going to fly.
> In terms of the funds earmarked for the new space, to what extent do  
> we limit purchases and upgrades?  I see the most critical items being:  
> bathroom(s)/shower, electrical, walls, kitchen and other common shared  
> infrastructure.  These are meant to meet ADA, building code  
> worthiness, general safety and comfort requirements.  What happens  
> when funds are spent, on say on a meat-only storage freezer, color  
> photo processing equipment or an industrial CNC machines (all  
> hypothetical examples) - yielding gear that isn't "new space"  
> specific; are funders Ok with these type of purchases?
> Again, not trying to come off as the nay-sayer here but we're flying  
> blind from what I can gather currently.  I'm very excited about the  
> new space itself, the breathing room we'll have and fun network  
> upgrades that will follow.  Let's just be up front and realistic about  
> the costs.
> --Matt
> On Jul 19, 2009, at 7:52 PM, Andy Isaacson wrote:
> >
> > The landlords apparently aren't interested in doing any work up-front,
> > so we'd be doing any work on our own dime and on our own time.  We
> > requested that they replace the smaller (front) bathroom with a larger
> > bathroom (leaving the current rear bathroom in its current state) and
> > they declined.
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