[Noisebridge-discuss] Handy signs are handy.

Danny O'Brien danny at spesh.com
Fri Jul 29 12:25:10 PDT 2011


On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's
> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so
> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.
> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with
> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.
> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.

Well, the challenge there is that people perceive signs themselves in
exactly the same way -- as sometimes passive-aggressive attempts to
fix a problem without communicating or working out a change. They're
seen (note: seen as, not *are*) acts by people who don't care to talk
or compromise, but who want to order people around in abstentia. The
communication fails both ways. I'm not saying that's a deliberate
thing by the person putting up the sign, but it's definitely an
impression  that one has to mitigate against. The ideal is not to
presume anything about the internal motivations of the people involved
and work to fix the actual outward (ha!) signs.

I say this as someone who actually likes signs, but has spoken to
people who are old key members of the space, clearly love talking and
compromise and discussion, but also clearly didn't like some of the
signs. Not particularly aggressively, but enough that that was a data
point on its own.

Note that also the kitchen signs all went down because somebody is
working on integrating them and improving them. I wish I knew who that
was, but she had some really good ideas. Not every sign taken down is
because someone is fuming at them; sometimes they're just messy and
need to be improved.







>
> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to
> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without
> being defaced or torn down.
>
> -Al
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>    Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data
>> point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however
>> obscure.
>>    I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area
>> around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer
>> signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:
>>> Hey kids,
>>>
>>>
>>> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch
>>> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME
>>> and 2.  no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not
>>> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.
>>>  We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be
>>> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot
>>> be easily moved or disregarded.  If you'd like to be part of the sign
>>> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to
>>> Liz or myself.
>>>
>>>
>>> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since
>>> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular
>>> commitment.  It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't
>>> decided yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> PS:  Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several hundred
>>> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've
>>> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing
>>> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is
>>> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and
>>> laminated elsewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>            Thanks lots, Al, for your work.
>>>            Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some
>>>         fine-tuning,
>>>         mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed
>>>         signs".
>>>            As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may
>>>         reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the
>>>         background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of the
>>>         sign presents.
>>>            Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording
>>>         of
>>>         printed signs, including some aspect of printing that presents
>>>         the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of
>>>         doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more
>>>         polished
>>>         finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
>>>         > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful commentary
>>>         so much
>>>         > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just
>>>         gets torn
>>>         > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate communication
>>>         and
>>>         > discourages people from putting up signs in the first place.
>>>         It's not
>>>         > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and
>>>         undoing
>>>         > edits are trivial.
>>>         >
>>>         > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day to
>>>         > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being
>>>         defaced or
>>>         > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying
>>>         again if
>>>         > they get tagged up.
>>>         >
>>>         > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for brainstorming.
>>>         There's a
>>>         > wiki page up too: nburl.net/signage
>>>         >
>>>         > -Al
>>>         >
>>>         > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien
>>>         <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>         > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar
>>>         > > <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>         > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an
>>>         excellent piece of
>>>         > >> feedback from the community about the quality,
>>>         intentions, or placement of
>>>         > >> the sign.  Signs I've made have been removed. I try to be
>>>         pragmatic about it
>>>         > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can
>>>         improve against.
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...
>>>         including exit
>>>         > >> signs.  Anyone want to start a signage working group with
>>>         me?
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >
>>>         > > I think the best place for this would be on the social
>>>         engineering list.
>>>         > >
>>>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering
>>>         > >
>>>         > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's tuesday
>>>         meeting (or
>>>         > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet up
>>>         before then
>>>         > > to brainstorm on it?)
>>>         > >
>>>         > > d.
>>>         > >
>>>         > >> mediumreality.com
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O&apos;Brien"
>>>         <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>         > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart
>>>         <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>         > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less
>>>         intimidating to
>>>         > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space
>>>         to make it more
>>>         > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,
>>>         and provide
>>>         > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the thing
>>>         is glowing
>>>         > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up recently
>>>         (if you have a
>>>         > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to
>>>         email me
>>>         > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage
>>>         preserving the signs,
>>>         > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without
>>>         being defaced or
>>>         > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that
>>>         dollar, it'd be
>>>         > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working on
>>>         improving the
>>>         > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste bridge),
>>>         you might
>>>         > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about
>>>         getting a
>>>         > >>> laminator as well.
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general encouragement
>>>         in the last
>>>         > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I
>>>         personally think
>>>         > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in
>>>         general I also
>>>         > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also
>>>         good. Liz's
>>>         > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because
>>>         someone is working
>>>         > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written
>>>         improvements. Our
>>>         > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or just
>>>         > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than
>>>         simply
>>>         > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't
>>>         working.
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>> d.
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>>
>>>         > >>>> -Al
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the
>>>         white HP inkjet
>>>         > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's
>>>         expensive (i.e.
>>>         > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).
>>>         > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>         > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>         > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         > >>>>
>>>         > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>         > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>         > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>         > >>>
>>>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>         > >>
>>>         > >
>>>         > _______________________________________________
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>>>         >
>>>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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