[Noisebridge-discuss] Handy signs are handy.

Shannon Lee shannon at scatter.com
Fri Jul 29 12:40:30 PDT 2011


One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of
signs as instructions or statements of policy.  For example, a sign with a
diagram of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes
programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE
DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective.  Lowering barriers to doing the
right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form
guilt.

--S

On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's
> > just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so
> > there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.
> > And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with
> > people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.
> > That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.
>
> Well, the challenge there is that people perceive signs themselves in
> exactly the same way -- as sometimes passive-aggressive attempts to
> fix a problem without communicating or working out a change. They're
> seen (note: seen as, not *are*) acts by people who don't care to talk
> or compromise, but who want to order people around in abstentia. The
> communication fails both ways. I'm not saying that's a deliberate
> thing by the person putting up the sign, but it's definitely an
> impression  that one has to mitigate against. The ideal is not to
> presume anything about the internal motivations of the people involved
> and work to fix the actual outward (ha!) signs.
>
> I say this as someone who actually likes signs, but has spoken to
> people who are old key members of the space, clearly love talking and
> compromise and discussion, but also clearly didn't like some of the
> signs. Not particularly aggressively, but enough that that was a data
> point on its own.
>
> Note that also the kitchen signs all went down because somebody is
> working on integrating them and improving them. I wish I knew who that
> was, but she had some really good ideas. Not every sign taken down is
> because someone is fuming at them; sometimes they're just messy and
> need to be improved.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to
> > donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without
> > being defaced or torn down.
> >
> > -Al
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>    Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data
> >> point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however
> >> obscure.
> >>    I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area
> >> around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer
> >> signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:
> >>> Hey kids,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch
> >>> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN TIME
> >>> and 2.  no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not
> >>> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.
> >>>  We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be
> >>> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they cannot
> >>> be easily moved or disregarded.  If you'd like to be part of the sign
> >>> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak to
> >>> Liz or myself.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday, since
> >>> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular
> >>> commitment.  It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't
> >>> decided yet.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> PS:  Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several hundred
> >>> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one (I've
> >>> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same thing
> >>> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is
> >>> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and
> >>> laminated elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>            Thanks lots, Al, for your work.
> >>>            Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some
> >>>         fine-tuning,
> >>>         mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed
> >>>         signs".
> >>>            As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may
> >>>         reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the
> >>>         background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of the
> >>>         sign presents.
> >>>            Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording
> >>>         of
> >>>         printed signs, including some aspect of printing that presents
> >>>         the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of
> >>>         doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more
> >>>         polished
> >>>         finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>         On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
> >>>         > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful commentary
> >>>         so much
> >>>         > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just
> >>>         gets torn
> >>>         > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate communication
> >>>         and
> >>>         > discourages people from putting up signs in the first place.
> >>>         It's not
> >>>         > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and
> >>>         undoing
> >>>         > edits are trivial.
> >>>         >
> >>>         > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day to
> >>>         > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being
> >>>         defaced or
> >>>         > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying
> >>>         again if
> >>>         > they get tagged up.
> >>>         >
> >>>         > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for brainstorming.
> >>>         There's a
> >>>         > wiki page up too: nburl.net/signage
> >>>         >
> >>>         > -Al
> >>>         >
> >>>         > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien
> >>>         <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >>>         > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar
> >>>         > > <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>         > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an
> >>>         excellent piece of
> >>>         > >> feedback from the community about the quality,
> >>>         intentions, or placement of
> >>>         > >> the sign.  Signs I've made have been removed. I try to be
> >>>         pragmatic about it
> >>>         > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can
> >>>         improve against.
> >>>         > >>
> >>>         > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...
> >>>         including exit
> >>>         > >> signs.  Anyone want to start a signage working group with
> >>>         me?
> >>>         > >>
> >>>         > >
> >>>         > > I think the best place for this would be on the social
> >>>         engineering list.
> >>>         > >
> >>>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering
> >>>         > >
> >>>         > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's tuesday
> >>>         meeting (or
> >>>         > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet up
> >>>         before then
> >>>         > > to brainstorm on it?)
> >>>         > >
> >>>         > > d.
> >>>         > >
> >>>         > >> mediumreality.com
> >>>         > >>
> >>>         > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O&apos;Brien"
> >>>         <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> >>>         > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart
> >>>         <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>         > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less
> >>>         intimidating to
> >>>         > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space
> >>>         to make it more
> >>>         > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,
> >>>         and provide
> >>>         > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the thing
> >>>         is glowing
> >>>         > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>         > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up recently
> >>>         (if you have a
> >>>         > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to
> >>>         email me
> >>>         > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage
> >>>         preserving the signs,
> >>>         > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without
> >>>         being defaced or
> >>>         > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that
> >>>         dollar, it'd be
> >>>         > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working on
> >>>         improving the
> >>>         > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste bridge),
> >>>         you might
> >>>         > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about
> >>>         getting a
> >>>         > >>> laminator as well.
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general encouragement
> >>>         in the last
> >>>         > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I
> >>>         personally think
> >>>         > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in
> >>>         general I also
> >>>         > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also
> >>>         good. Liz's
> >>>         > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because
> >>>         someone is working
> >>>         > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written
> >>>         improvements. Our
> >>>         > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or just
> >>>         > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than
> >>>         simply
> >>>         > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't
> >>>         working.
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>> d.
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>         > >>>> -Al
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>         > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the
> >>>         white HP inkjet
> >>>         > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's
> >>>         expensive (i.e.
> >>>         > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).
> >>>         > >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>         > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>         > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>         > >>>>
> >>>         > >>> _______________________________________________
> >>>         > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>         > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>         > >>>
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>         > >>
> >>>         > >
> >>>         > _______________________________________________
> >>>         > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>         > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>         >
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>         _______________________________________________
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> >>>         Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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-- 
Shannon Lee
(503) 539-3700

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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