[Noisebridge-discuss] Handy signs are handy.

Al Sweigart asweigart at gmail.com
Sun Jul 31 11:47:41 PDT 2011


It does show that people don't deface the signs because they disagree
with a policy or wording or some other reason. People just do it
because a sign is there. It's not just a sign that says, "Do not
deface this sign." (which would be pretty funny to deface). It's a
sign that conveys that signage is useful, and takes the carrot
approach rather than a punitive stick approach to encourage people not
to mark them up.

If we buy a vinyl cutter or get framed signs or whatever, it'll just
be a more expensive thing that gets defaced. Talking about this issue
and improving the culture is something we need to work on.

-Al

On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Danny O'Brien <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
> Well, oh my days, I would never in a *million* years anticipated such
> a thing to happen with such a sign!
>
> d.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/j49hg
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2011 1:54 PM, "Christina Olson" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I can appreciate wanting to buy a vinyl cutter, but I put it under the
>>> same
>>> umbrella as buying a laminator: It's gonna put more delay between now and
>>> having signs up. Wide format printed two or three color
>>> black-text-on-white
>>> signs run through a regular laminator will be quite readable and perfectly
>>> serviceable, and take far less time to set up, and making that happen
>>> doesn't actually depend on anyone but me and Liz.
>>>
>>>> One way to thread this needle is to focus on signs as labels instead of
>>> signs > as instructions or statements of policy. For example, a sign with
>>> a
>>> diagram > of where the dishes go and a copy of Danny's "how to do dishes
>>>> programatically" flowchart might go over better than a big "DO NOT LEAVE
>>>> >
>>> DISHES IN THE SINK" and be more effective. Lowering barriers to doing the
>>> >
>>> right thing is at least as effective a strategy as playing on free-form
>>> guilt.
>>>
>>> ^^^^ This is definitely what I had in mind. I would like to get people to
>>> feel good about following the directions in the signs, and engaged with
>>> the
>>> process of keeping noisebridge in shape, and not feel alienated or ordered
>>> around.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It really doesn't matter. The instructional signs get defaced. The
>>>> policy-oriented signs get defaced (even the ones that have been
>>>> reworded after I talk with others about them.)
>>>>
>>>> My offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day
>>>> the printed signs don't get defaced or torn down. That comes to almost
>>>> an extra starving-hacker rate membership.
>>>>
>>>> -Al
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 12:50 PM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I still think you should define "printed signs" more
>>>> > particularly.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 11:26 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
>>>> >> I know that signs getting defaced or torn down is a data point, it's
>>>> >> just not a very helpful one. I have no clue who did it or why, so
>>>> >> there's no way I can talk to them and work out a change or compromise.
>>>> >> And if somebody is just defacing a sign instead of bringing it up with
>>>> >> people, they most likely don't _care_ to talk about it or compromise.
>>>> >> That's unexcellent behavior that we should change.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> So to encourage people not taking the defacing route, I'm offering to
>>>> >> donate a dollar to Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without
>>>> >> being defaced or torn down.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -Al
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:55 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Note Rachel's point that any tagging is a likely data
>>>> >> > point. I believe most tagging indicates something, however
>>>> >> > obscure.
>>>> >> > I'd like to reiterate the idea of clearing an area
>>>> >> > around a posted sign and add the notion of having fewer
>>>> >> > signs and/or have signs deal with fewer topics.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:48 -0700, Christina Olson wrote:
>>>> >> >> Hey kids,
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> In my discussion with Liz and Danny about signs I did in fact touch
>>>> >> >> upon the points that 1. signs get removed or moved ALL THE DAMN
>>>> >> >> TIME
>>>> >> >> and 2. no one respects any signage due to the fact that they're not
>>>> >> >> clear, not consistent, and just printed paper taped to somewhere.
>>>> >> >> We're working on a branded, systemic set of signs that will be
>>>> >> >> laminated and nailed/screwed to walls and other things so they
>>>> >> >> cannot
>>>> >> >> be easily moved or disregarded. If you'd like to be part of the
>>>> >> >> sign
>>>> >> >> development effort please join the soceng mailing list, and speak
>>>> >> >> to
>>>> >> >> Liz or myself.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> The soceng meeting will be a day next week that is NOT tuesday,
>>>> >> >> since
>>>> >> >> I can't ever make Tuesday anything due to a preexisting regular
>>>> >> >> commitment. It will probably be Wednesday or Thursday, I haven't
>>>> >> >> decided yet.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> PS: Buying a laminator is hella crazy expensive, like several
>>>> hundred
>>>> >> >> dollars for a shitty personal one and thousands for a good one
>>>> >> >> (I've
>>>> >> >> already looked into this multiple times for other reasons, same
>>>> >> >> thing
>>>> >> >> with paper cutters and binding machines), so unless someone is
>>>> >> >> donating one to the space, we are going to get them printed and
>>>> >> >> laminated elsewhere.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:41 AM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Thanks lots, Al, for your work.
>>>> >> >> Your offer of $1 a day seems to me to need some
>>>> >> >> fine-tuning,
>>>> >> >> mainly to specify particular signs, not just "the printed
>>>> >> >> signs".
>>>> >> >> As to tagging, seemingly snarky (gratuitous) additions may
>>>> >> >> reflect some reasonable criticism, sometimes a matter of the
>>>> >> >> background attitude that the wording and graphic effect of
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> sign presents.
>>>> >> >> Maybe give some further thought to the design and wording
>>>> >> >> of
>>>> >> >> printed signs, including some aspect of printing that
>>>> presents
>>>> >> >> the sign as a finished graphic--while that presents a risk of
>>>> >> >> doing extra work that gets trashed (i.e. tagged), a more
>>>> >> >> polished
>>>> >> >> finish may deter the more genuinely snarky changes.
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> On Fri, 2011-07-29 at 10:30 -0700, Al Sweigart wrote:
>>>> >> >> > The tagging I've seen haven't really been helpful
>>>> commentary
>>>> >> >> so much
>>>> >> >> > as just passive aggressive snarky comments or the sign just
>>>> >> >> gets torn
>>>> >> >> > down. Either way, it doesn't really facilitate
>>>> communication
>>>> >> >> and
>>>> >> >> > discourages people from putting up signs in the first
>>>> place.
>>>> >> >> It's not
>>>> >> >> > like the wiki, where you can have a separate talk page and
>>>> >> >> undoing
>>>> >> >> > edits are trivial.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > Anyway, my offer still stands. I'll donate a dollar a day
>>>> to
>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge each day the printed signs go without being
>>>> >> >> defaced or
>>>> >> >> > torn down. I'll occasionally replace signs and start paying
>>>> >> >> again if
>>>> >> >> > they get tagged up.
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > I'm up for meeting with Liz and Daravinne for
>>>> brainstorming.
>>>> >> >> There's a
>>>> >> >> > wiki page up too: nburl.net/signage
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > -Al
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >> > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Danny O'Brien
>>>> >> >> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > > On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 10:06 AM, rachel lyra hospodar
>>>> >> >> > > <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > >> I think if a sign gets removed or defaced it's often an
>>>> >> >> excellent piece of
>>>> >> >> > >> feedback from the community about the quality,
>>>> >> >> intentions, or placement of
>>>> >> >> > >> the sign. Signs I've made have been removed. I try to
>>>> be
>>>> >> >> pragmatic about it
>>>> >> >> > >> and take the fact of their removal to be something I can
>>>> >> >> improve against.
>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> > >> I think we need better signage for a lot of reasons...
>>>> >> >> including exit
>>>> >> >> > >> signs. Anyone want to start a signage working group
>>>> with
>>>> >> >> me?
>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> > > I think the best place for this would be on the social
>>>> >> >> engineering list.
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/socialengineering
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> > > Me, Liz and Daravinne can't make it to this week's
>>>> tuesday
>>>> >> >> meeting (or
>>>> >> >> > > the social engineering meeting before it, so maybe meet
>>>> up
>>>> >> >> before then
>>>> >> >> > > to brainstorm on it?)
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> > > d.
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> > >> mediumreality.com
>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> > >> On Jul 29, 2011 10:02 AM, "Danny O&apos;Brien"
>>>> >> >> <danny at spesh.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > >>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Al Sweigart
>>>> >> >> <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> >> > >>>> One of the efforts I want to do to make the space less
>>>> >> >> intimidating to
>>>> >> >> > >>>> new people is to improve the signage around the space
>>>> >> >> to make it more
>>>> >> >> > >>>> obvious what things are at NB, where those things are,
>>>> >> >> and provide
>>>> >> >> > >>>> answers for "what is this thing?" (protip: If the
>>>> thing
>>>> >> >> is glowing
>>>> >> >> > >>>> and/or slimy, don't touch it.)
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>> A lot of the signs have been getting tagged up
>>>> recently
>>>> >> >> (if you have a
>>>> >> >> > >>>> problem or suggestion with the wording, feel free to
>>>> >> >> email me
>>>> >> >> > >>>> privately or email the list), so to encourage
>>>> >> >> preserving the signs,
>>>> >> >> > >>>> I'm going to donate $1 each day the signs go without
>>>> >> >> being defaced or
>>>> >> >> > >>>> torn down. (If anyone can help with a part of that
>>>> >> >> dollar, it'd be
>>>> >> >> > >>>> great. $365 a year adds up.)
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>> Hey Al, I think Daravinne and Liz are already working
>>>> on
>>>> >> >> improving the
>>>> >> >> > >>> signing (as is somebody I don't know from taste
>>>> bridge),
>>>> >> >> you might
>>>> >> >> > >>> want to work with them on this. There's some talk about
>>>> >> >> getting a
>>>> >> >> > >>> laminator as well.
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>> I think the "tagging" comes from a general
>>>> encouragement
>>>> >> >> in the last
>>>> >> >> > >>> batch of signs to note changes or improvements, and I
>>>> >> >> personally think
>>>> >> >> > >>> it's a good way to get direct commentary; though in
>>>> >> >> general I also
>>>> >> >> > >>> think putting an email and contact on the signs is also
>>>> >> >> good. Liz's
>>>> >> >> > >>> kitchen signs got taken down specifically because
>>>> >> >> someone is working
>>>> >> >> > >>> on better versions of them, based on the written
>>>> >> >> improvements. Our
>>>> >> >> > >>> signs are generally just not very good or clear (or
>>>> just
>>>> >> >> > >>> overpowering), and I think requires more thought than
>>>> >> >> simply
>>>> >> >> > >>> attempting not to deface or remove ones that aren't
>>>> >> >> working.
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>> d.
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>> -Al
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>> p.s. I put fresh black and color cartridges in the
>>>> >> >> white HP inkjet
>>>> >> >> > >>>> printer, but print in color sparingly cause it's
>>>> >> >> expensive (i.e.
>>>> >> >> > >>>> overpriced by monopolistic bastards).
>>>> >> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> >> > >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >> > >>>>
>>>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> >> > >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> >> > >>>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >> >> > >>
>>>> >> >> > >
>>>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> >> >
>>>> >> >>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> >>
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>
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