[Noisebridge-discuss] Meeting notes, 2009-09-06
danny at spesh.com
Wed Sep 7 01:46:12 PDT 2011
The 177th Meeting of
Note-taker: Danny <https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/User:Malaclyps>
Moderator: Rubin <https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/User:Rubin110>
*Introduction and Names*
* **What Noisebridge is
* Round of introductions*
Rubin - he's here.
Alex - makes video games
Edd -- community service
Duncan -- makes wallets
Mike - technowanderer
Tracy - new
Zach -- fix shit
Dan -- build servers
Garen -- make stuff
Robert -- make stuff
"Arf arf arf" -- a dog
Jorgen -- tastebridge
Jay -- publisher
Jayc -- wannabe hacker
EVIL -- Perl hacker
Jim -- visiting london hackspace
Matt - I'm new
Nathan -- visit from Bristol hackspace
Evan -- maker of intangibles
Jake -- lead poisoning
Liz -- I code and write and stuff
Person hiding behind bins - hi!
- A brief primer on consensus
We agree and so should you! Only paid-up members can block consensus.
Danny talks about the Noisebridge 311
<https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/311>number. He would like help
making it work well -- also encourage people to
use IRC to find others if they need help.
*New or Stale Events*
Rubin introduced our Hacker Prom on Saturday, October 1st, dress shirt or
tie. Robot as a date, and a fundraiser for tor.noisebridge.net.
Dorkbot hoping to throw an event in 2 or 3 weeks, probably on a Wednesday.
They are awesome.
5mof every third THURSDAY, september 15th.
On October 13-15th, hackmeet for hacktivism.
* Financial Report*
Funds in bank: $20,453.83
We're so close guys! If we had had this much last week we would be at our
goal of 3 months operating expenses untouched. Another $1K+ in
dues/donations this month would put us over the edge! I have transferred
another $5K to our savings account (meaning it now has a little over 15K in
it) and if I don't have to touch that in the next month or so for
bill-paying, I'd say we're good! Will keep everyone posted in these coming
* Membership Binder*
Lots of new memberships incoming!
*No consensus items*
Rob talks about the incident with Kayla, Jay and Duncan. from my
understanding, he begins, somehow beer got spilt on her computer, and now it
has turned into a blame game. I've read the mailing list accounts, and got
one side of the stories.
The incident is as follow: Jay was inebriated and drunk, "belligerent".
Duncan was sitting next to Kayla. Duncan had a beer and a burrito. Beer was
tossed out of Duncan's hand, onto the computer.
How much drink had Duncan had? He had a Corona before hand.
Jay's email was held in a queue, everyone quietly read it on the big
((Duncan says he saw Jay spill the beer.)) ((Jay says he saw Duncan spill
the beer on Kayla's computer.))
Jorgen said Kayla couldn't come. We don't know about the laptop.
Zach says he'd be happy to look at it to help fix the laptop. The crux of
the whole thing is the damage of the computer, but things like this will
happen in a collective space. One thing I'd like to come out of this, is
some sort of protocol for when the police do get involved. That may have
jumped the gun a little.
Jason: We have a pretty good understanding that they call the police if its
absolute necessary, and also an understanding that people differ on that,
and we can argue about it.
Zach says calling the police means different things. We don't know people's
background, some people might see it as a simple thing, some people might
see it as very serious.
The moderator suggests that we will talk about that another time.
We all read Duncan's
Jake read Kayla's
Jake believes the laptop is ruined.
Jake is very concerned, because nobody wants to call the police or get
physical. Nobody wants to tell people if they're out of line. If everybody
in a community decides that they don't want to deal with a problem, the
community changes and not for the good.
Jay says that consuming alcohol does not change you into a wombat. Nobody
involved in this was that drunk.
Jorgen, computer or not, accident or not, if somebody drunk gets asked to
leave the premises, and you refuse to do so, then that individual makes a
terrible mistake. It's not about you, it's about the community. If you
refuse to leave, then that's not excellent.
Alex's story: I was there, and I'm going to give some background, and my
opinion on what happened. When I met Jay for the first time, he was not
feeling well, and passed out on the couch, and a woman who was also in pain
with a migraine was there. My first impression of Jay was that he seemed
really out of it and belligerent about not being asked to not sleep on the
couch. We have a sense that anyone can ask someone not to sleep. You Jay,
responded to being asked not to sleep on the couch, and the response was
"fuck off!". You don't treat people like that in Noisebridge.
In this case, The number one thing you don't do, is say that if you want me
to leave, you need to call the cops. When you say "I will not leave, these
people are liars", you come across as belligerent. It makes everyone want to
leave, you were speaking in a way that Buddhists call "bad speech". That
first time, I asked you to respect other Noisebridgers.
I said then what I said at the evening of the incident, which was I'm not
telling you to leave, I'm telling you that other people would like to leave,
they've called the police. I too was asked to leave Noisebridge a long time
ago -- I didn't petition then, I apologised and left the space for months.
The email shows that you do care. You seem like you want to obey
Noisebridge's standards. I'm just saying that you're really bad at it.
Anyone who wants to not be seen as "crazy" or "belligerent", needs to leave
their struggles in the rest of their life at the door.
The last thing is: you gave me a completely conflicting version about the
laptop. In my opinion, the laptop is the least of this. What ultimately is
unacceptable is the way you behaved.
Rubin doesn't give a shit about a laptop. Stuff gets broken. What I do
expect is to have good interactions here. It might be in your best interests
to discuss how you behaved. (Rubin says please could we talk about behavior,
not about the laptop.)
Jay: I would just like to alert people, although it may seem like I'm timid
not a very interactive person, I'm always busy and working on things, and
when people interfere with that -- as often happens here -- when people
interfere with my work, it upsets me.
(Jay says he is not schizophrenic but has been through some traumatic
experiences. he is working hard on his projects and doesn't like to be
interrupted. He is timid and doesn't like confrontation, he is like a rabbit
or a squirrel. )
I try to be very productive, whether it's the magazine or my the painting. I
don't like interactions when I'm doing that. Because of that, perhaps,
people will talk about me, instead of to me. I had some traumatic
experiences, and so when I'm confronted by two or more people, so I freak
out. This whole meeting is very hard for me to do.
Jason: Thank you for doing this. (Jason says he appreciates that this
meeting is incredibly hard for Jay then. He asks if Jay can see that maybe
some of his behavior is problematic. )I'd like to ask: is the description of
how others have described you, the way you think you behave?
Jay: Well, this doesn't just happen here. I'm published widely, and my
magazine is read very widely. I deal with this situation all the time. (Jay
says he is a well known journalist and is on the covers of magazines and so
on and people read him around the world.)
Jason: Could you answer the question?
Jay: Yes, I behave like this. (I probably acted inappropriately toward Alex
and mumbled or gave him a dirty look.)
Jason: Is there anything that you have regrets about? Because I'm hearing
two very different descriptions of events, and I'd like to see some overlap.
Jay: I think I acted inappropriately to Alex in these two occasions. I don't
think it was caused by him -- I think he was stepping into a situation.
Jayc: I've known Jay for some time. Other than that, my occurrences have
been moderate to mediocre. One time in the laser room, Laurent was in the
classrom, and I was using the laptop and the laser. I heard this huge
stomping sound. It was scary. I was frankly concerned about the laptop and
the laser getting affected by the stomping. Laurent went up to say "what the
fuck is going on?" in a scared manner. That wasn't good.
Jason: Did something like this occur, Kay?
Jay: I was just felt that I wasn't allowed to work.
Jayc: As another member of the community, it was the most intense situation
I've seen in NB. (General consensus that Jayc has seen his fair share of
intense situations) When that happened, I literally leapt down the stairs to
try and find out what was going down. One day, me and Carl were watching a
show, three or four weeks ago. Jay came in, he came over, say down next to
Elle, with no consideration for her. (Everyone talks about how El has been
uncomfortable in the space.)
Jason: do you remember this?
Jay: [don't know]
Jay: Perhaps I shouldn't come here at night, perhaps I shouldn't drink. But
I do think I'm can be a comfortable (fit with the space).
Jake: This journalism you describe, is that under your real name?
Jay: It's under (my real name, which is close to my name I use here). The
magazine is taking up more of my time than my journalism.
Jake: Is that how you make money?
Jay: I also sell painting in the street. I have extensive experience in
working in restaurants.
Jake: Do you make money on the painting?
Jay: I take donations.
Jake: Do you ever sell other types of things?
Jay: I sometimes sell food. I wouldn't make food here and then sell it
Jake: Where do you do this?
Jay: Valencia, 18th, the Castro, the police during the day have kicked me
out there, also Powells.
Jake: You sell just artworkk?
Jake: T-shirts, sometimes.
Robert: Duncan stated that he walked past Jay on Saturday. He passed by Jay
on the Castro St station, and Duncan saw Jay selling a black microscope.
Jason: You saw that?
Jason: Is this true? Were you selling a microscope?
Jake: Where's our microscope gone, Jay?
Jay: I don't know. Duncan's trying to frame me.
Jason: This man is trying to frame you?
Jay: I don't know why everyone is critical of me. I don't know what Rob has
against me -- he tried to destroy my art.
Rob: I cleared up. I threw some of the artwork out. I was sorry.
Wish: I like aestetics, flow. In the process, I watch what's going on. It
went from hard liquor, and then beer, in the incidents before that. This is
alcohol-related. It's always too self-centered. He sounds delusional. Not
the kind of interaction that's fun.
Rubin: I feel that the alcohol stuff is by the by.
Dan: I haven't had any serious incidents. People have told me that they feel
uncomfortable around him. El left permanently. I agree with you about not
being able to get work done here, it's hard sometimes -- but you shouldn't
take it out on people.
Jayc: In addition to what happened with the artwork, I made penance. He
alerted me that he was missing a piece of art. I gave him $7 for the
material. He came back with a bottle of booze.
There's a lot of people speaking about what's happened. We have two
directions that we can go in as a community. We can take those negative
aspects, and that will lead to Jay not being allowed into the space. Or we
could let Jay consider how his behaviour has led to other people leaving,
and see if there's a slow way to deal with it. His main worry seems to be
that people talk about him behind his back. Let me be a fair moderator. He's
helped cleaned up before. He's done some good. Up to us to figure out what
we have to do. I think there should be a grace period. I want to
collaborate, see if I can work with you as a peer. That's happened before --
if there's no peer, then errors may occur, and people don't reach out. We
should give them a chance, and not in such an overwhelming way.
Jason: I think it reasonable that there should be a liason for Jay.
Rubin: Are you nominating yourself?
Jason: Suuure. I'd like to move that there's a suspension for a month.
Leif: I move that Jason not actually be the liaison , if he's suspending
Jason for a month.
Jason: Okay, you be the liaison
Leif: Okay, fair enough.
Miloh: Man, if he stays around, I will leave.
Duncan: I think I have the right and fair expectation to have as Miloh said,
to feel personally safe from physical harm. This is not an isolated
incident. This is going on day in, day out. We're not a crisis shelter. I
came here in early June. I have had similar problems to Jay. Noisebridge has
helped me immensely. I am less feral. I am able to constrain themself. I've
kept my word. I take great pride in that. We can not help everybody. I can't
come here. I have had to leave Jay alone in this place. Noone else wanted to
take responsibility. Following up, Jorgen, Robert, Danny, people who are
here. And it's not just the nighttime.
Liz: But didn't we just say all this stuff to you two months ago?
Jay volunteers for a suspension for a month, and come back on October 6th.
Jake says that will reasonable.
Rubin disagrees with issuing a month suspension, and threatens to block.
Jay points out he's volunteering to leave, and Rubin, despite being a
member, cannot actually block people's voluntary actions.
Jay says that he will need time to move his things out, so that might take a
Everyone agrees that this is not acceptable.
Liz: Do you need a place to store your things?
Jay: No, but I need help to do it.
Liz: We can help you move your stuff. How about now?
Jay: I can't right now, the place I'd store my stuff is closed.
(Leif, Robert work with Jay to pick up his stuff at 4PM tomorrow)
Jason: We all agree that you need to move your stuff out at a clear time. It
can't be ambiguous as to when you're leaving.
Rubin: One of the things here is when people do their main commercial work
here. It makes it so that you end up getting stressed and mad if you're
Leif: You said you shouldn't drink, and you shouldn't come at night. Are you
willing to commit if you return?
Jason: Obviously you have different ways of things. After your break, are
you willing to say you're not going to get drunk.
Liz: It seems like Jay may not have heard them being critics, because you
perceived them as being unreasonable. You seem to be responding to us all
saying this at once, which is positive.
As a community, we need to deal with this beforehand. We seem to think that
it's tattling to speak up about incidents early, but because nothing is
said, it's hard for us to respond quickly as a community. this meeting has
brought up plenty of incidents that we were unaware of. We need a way to
intercede before dogpiling in in these meetings.
Jayc: I may not be a member, but I put in a lot of work. There's a reason
why I deserve to donate 8 hours of time. Why? I contribute to doing
something nice in the community because it's a nice community. I see where
Jay is coming from, and the stress that this meeting is bringing up. I like
the suspension period. Because of the lack of communication, there could
have been a better resolution. There's a lot of people who say negative
things. Maybe we get over ourselves, and come together. We could be other
reasons why this is happening. I feel if someone had sat down with Jay
earlier, it might have been resolved. The microscope-- I don't care if he
sold it, or Duncan sold it. I think we need better communication on all
Robby the Intern:
I have something to say, although it's not really about this.
A few months ago, I was in school, and the only way I learned about
electronics was by searching the Internet. Then I interned here. I never
believed I'd get to do all of this stuff. It's been amazing. I wanted to
thank Zach, Lillia for for loops, Jake and H-Bridges, and Jason who I call
the zen programmer, he taught me a lot about programming and philosophy. Ben
taught me about being a hacker.
I think you guys are being too hard on yourselves. Just by making these guys
sit here is a punishment in itself. A punishment for all of ourselves.
Noisebridge is a great place. I come from the east bay, and I've seen people
who have everything, behaving badly, selling iPhones. And I've seen people
here at Noisebridge, who have nothing, say "Oh, look, it's X's Macbook Pro,
they must have left it. We'll keep it safe, and give it to them when they
This is an amazing place, and I want to thank you for all your time you gave
me while I interned.
Rob: I think that hacking is about being more efficient. Let's continue to
hack to make all of this thing that we want to continue, more efficient.
Duncan announces will be seeking a restraining order in court.
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