[Noisebridge-discuss] Sigh -- I'm not helping with Maker Faires this year.

Matt Joyce matt at nycresistor.com
Tue Apr 3 09:42:26 PDT 2012

Okay.  since this is topical again.  I refer you to my previously
stated position on this.

>>> Begin Paste:

I'd like to point out that the US is still even in it's reduced capacity
putting far more effort into grander ideals such as space exploration than
most other nations.  And while you may not equate landing a rover on mars
with "the military", I can assure you that any form of space exploration
has very definite military applications.  Anything you do in the open
source or public domain in that field can be taken and reused with minimal
effort by others for nefarious purpose.

So, I don't really see the distinction sometimes between "military
application" and any other application.  Kind of an extension of guns don't
kill people.  People do.

"I just put the rockets in the air, I don't care where they come down..."
- Maybe a von braun quote.

You can't promote open source development while at the same time pretending
that your work can't be co-opted to do things you did not intend it to do.
Possibly things you do not like.  That would be akin to Von Braun telling
himself... he just builds rockets to put stuff in the air.  If someone else
decides to land them in downtown london packed full of C4... well that's on
them.  If you hate that...  well shit you and the unibomber have something
in common, have you read his manifesto?  Fun read.

This ties into the question... "Is knowledge always a good thing".  I think
most of us here, would say that the potential for knowledge is always going
to be varied.  But I have general faith in my fellow man so I believe that
most folks when handed some new knowledge will try to think of something
awesome to do with it, rather than... hrmmm... maybe I can use this to
destroy puppies.  So I invoke "You can't stop the signal Mal" level 9001.

Now yes, some of what DARPA funds is designed specifically to make killing
people easier and more efficient.  Sometimes the by-product of that is,
less collateral damage.  Sometimes, it's a greater level of belligerence in
foreign policy.  Sometimes it's an unpredictable hellish dystopian future.
I am not saying it's okay to support that.  I am not saying that you should
ignore that.

The reality is, DARPA funds research it is interested in.  If you are
interested in it too, and would do it in open source anyways... then I
don't see the issue with making that knowledge available to them.  If they
are willing to fund your research, then yeah, you have to weigh what the
consequences of that are.  That is responsible.  You obviously want to keep
true to your own goals and not become a slave to someone elses.   But, if
the goals line up... why not?

Stopping bullets.  Reducing the damage IEDs cause.  Building a better mine
remover.  Any number of emergency medical response / disaster response
technologies.  Food preservatives.... etc etc.  These are research areas
that could SAVE lives.  Space exploration relies on technology that allows
us to put mass into orbit, and mass in orbit alone can be used as a
terrifying weapon... that's ignoring the strategic applications of an
ICBM.  Does that mean that anyone who works in the field of exploring our
universe is some sort of puppy hating monster?  Hell most of them work with
the US gov, and most of their work is reviewed and passed on to defense
industries for a myriad of reasons.

Is something as wonderful as the Hubble or the MSL some sort of taboo
technology now?  I say nay.

And I want to remind you.  DARPA isn't in the business of killing people.
It's in the business of engineering peace where there is none.  War and
chaos do not achieve the objectives of DARPA or the US military.  Their
goal is to END conflict.  They don't start it.  They get tasked to "end it"
usually on favorable terms.  You want to equate defense work with "murder"
I'd point the finger at the ambassadors, senators, and other political
entities that allow war to happen.  Some of them will own that
responsibility and some of them will shirk it.  But to place blame on DARPA
for it is somewhat absurd.

Just some thoughts.

      - Matt

Archived here:

On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 1:47 AM, Mitch Altman <maltman23 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I first heard about this when Dale announced it at the thank you dinner after the NY Maker Faire in September.  And it has been ripping me up ever since.  I've also always totally loved working with Maker Faire.  It has been a huge wonderful part of my life.  It has helped so many people in so many ways.  And I've enjoyed helping in all the ways I could.
> It was odd to me that it was not public information until this announcement:
> http://press.oreilly.com/pub/pr/2962
> I spoke with Dale to explore ways that I might be able to contribute to the Maker Faire without being associated with DARPA money.  We couldn't find a way.  After struggling with this for months, I finally emailed Dale and told him I couldn't help out this year, but would help again in a heartbeat if they stop receiving DARPA funding.
> Mitch.
> --------------------
>> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 21:35:47 -0700
>> From: rachelyra at gmail.com
>> To: maltman23 at hotmail.com
>> CC: noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Sigh -- I'm not helping with Maker Faires this year.
>> how did you find out? i don't see it anywhere in a cursory perusal of
>> their site. Oreilly donated a bunch of materials to Occupy and I have
>> always really liked working with them :( but i might have to join you in
>> this protest.
>> On 4/2/2012 7:15 PM, Mitch Altman wrote:
>> > It's official. I'm greatly saddened that I won't be able to help at this
>> > year's Maker Faires after they applied for and accepted a grant from DARPA.
>> >
>> > I look forward to working and playing at Maker Faire again, after they
>> > are no longer associated with DARPA.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss

More information about the Noisebridge-discuss mailing list