[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave

Frantisek Apfelbeck frantisekapfelbeck at gmail.com
Thu May 3 17:44:08 PDT 2012


Hi to all:

Having dealt with her personally she is a troubled soul. She needs help but
Noisebridge is not the place for her.

-- 
Sincerely,

Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck

biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker

http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org

"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com> wrote:

> OK, I read the meeting notes.  This...is...in fact...bullshit.
>
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>wrote:
>
>> Joe, I have no idea who you are.  As far as I know, I've never seen you
>> there.  Who's the troll?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Uh huh.  And when people aren't actually willing to show their face to
>>> talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet troll that
>>> doesn't need to be taken seriously.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>> > yes because whenever people say something is too horrible to possibly
>>> > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about everything else, it
>>> just
>>> > sounds like there's really nothing to say and they're trying to cover
>>> the
>>> > lack of justification for what they did with secrecy.
>>> >
>>> > let's hear it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> The people who were actually there and made the call, did not want to
>>> >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the meeting.
>>> >>
>>> >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for the people who don't
>>> >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Irony is lost on this one.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of FUCKING GOD or ALLAH
>>> or
>>> >>> SATAN
>>> >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Feynman, help us.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions are making
>>> noisebridge
>>> >>>> look bad.  and getting the police to come over.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> You know...it's funny.  I still have no idea what she did wrong.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra hospodar
>>> >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>      The last time I talked to her about it, Erica was no longer
>>> >>>>> feeling
>>> >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her she wasn't
>>> >>>>>      enough of a hacker and she should leave.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>      This after she had to ask him to stop calling her at 3am.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>      R.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>      On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake" <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>> >>>>>            I couldn't have said it better myself.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            Why is Erica no longer feeling welcome?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            I have to say,  I have noticed that some people
>>> (including
>>> >>>>> Jesse for sure)
>>> >>>>>            seem to be fulfilling my prediction that we could swing
>>> >>>>> around
>>> >>>>> into the
>>> >>>>>            reactionary zone after we started dealing with the
>>> >>>>> occupiers.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            Please re-read the below and let's not make the same
>>> >>>>> mistakes
>>> >>>>> again.
>>> >>>>>            Calling the police is a LAST RESORT and shows bad
>>> judgement
>>> >>>>> on
>>> >>>>> the part of
>>> >>>>>            the people who did it.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            What would Jesse or Will have done if a couple of female
>>> >>>>> members told them
>>> >>>>>            to leave?
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            Carl said:
>>> >>>>>            You know I don't post here all that much, but I really
>>> felt
>>> >>>>> that I had
>>> >>>>>            to respond to this...
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            I've read through all of the comments about what
>>> transpired
>>> >>>>> with
>>> >>>>>            Cynthia, on the discuss list and the meeting notes.
>>> >>>>>  Although
>>> >>>>> I haven't
>>> >>>>>            been present at Noisebridge during the past week, from
>>> what
>>> >>>>> I've read so
>>> >>>>>            far, I am really not pleased about how people involved
>>> in
>>> >>>>> this
>>> >>>>> situation
>>> >>>>>            treated her.  (This would include Jesse, Will, and
>>> >>>>> apparently
>>> >>>>> a third
>>> >>>>>            man.)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            First of all, calling the police really should not be
>>> done
>>> >>>>> unless:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            1. Someone is harming or threatening harm to another
>>> person,
>>> >>>>> causing
>>> >>>>>            damage to the space, stealing, or otherwise causing
>>> trouble
>>> >>>>> or
>>> >>>>>            performing an illegal activity.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            2. A person who has been officially banned from the
>>> space
>>> >>>>> refuses to
>>> >>>>>            leave.  And by "official", I mean a due process has been
>>> >>>>> followed
>>> >>>>>            whereas a previous discussion and consensus was taken
>>> to ban
>>> >>>>> a
>>> >>>>>            particular person.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge community are unable
>>> to
>>> >>>>> handle the
>>> >>>>>            situation on our own should we get the police involved.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            I find it troubling when individuals take it upon
>>> themselves
>>> >>>>> to forcibly
>>> >>>>>            remove people from the space, who by all accounts of
>>> what
>>> >>>>> I've
>>> >>>>> read, did
>>> >>>>>            NOT cause any trouble prior to being asked to leave.  I
>>> >>>>> believe it was
>>> >>>>>            wrong for Jesse and Will to have done what they did in
>>> this
>>> >>>>> case, prior
>>> >>>>>            to taking it up at a meeting where the members could
>>> discuss
>>> >>>>> and make a
>>> >>>>>            decision as to whether to ban Cynthia from the space,
>>> AND
>>> >>>>> ONLY
>>> >>>>> AFTER
>>> >>>>>            this discussion and consensus would it be appropriate
>>> to ask
>>> >>>>> someone to
>>> >>>>>            not return.  (and as she brought up, informing her of
>>> this
>>> >>>>> could have
>>> >>>>>            been done through email prior to her arrival in order to
>>> >>>>> avoid
>>> >>>>> this
>>> >>>>>            confrontation.)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            I am also troubled by the flippant and immature
>>> responses on
>>> >>>>> this list
>>> >>>>>            about Cynthia being "crazy".  Her past talk of legal
>>> actions
>>> >>>>> against
>>> >>>>>            Texas corporations has no bearing on what transpired.
>>>  As
>>> >>>>> far
>>> >>>>> as I can
>>> >>>>>            tell, she hasn't forng more people than prior to when
>>> the
>>> >>>>> Oogles started
>>> >>>>>            arriving at the space.  The first time Noisebridge ever
>>> >>>>> banned
>>> >>>>> anyone,
>>> >>>>>            it took considerable discussion and a consensus process.
>>> >>>>>  Nowadays it
>>> >>>>>            seems like any member can just ban anyone they don't
>>> like.
>>> >>>>>  How and why
>>> >>>>>            did we get to this point?  And I'm not just talking
>>> about
>>> >>>>> Cynthia here,
>>> >>>>>            but others as well.  (take Erica for example, who no
>>> longer
>>> >>>>> feels
>>> >>>>>            welcome here.)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            And lastly, I think we need to stop this witch-hunt
>>> >>>>> non-hacker
>>> >>>>> hate
>>> >>>>>            mentality that we seem to be developing here, which will
>>> >>>>> only
>>> >>>>> drive away
>>> >>>>>            new people who may not be familiar with hacker culture.
>>>  If
>>> >>>>> we
>>> >>>>> try to
>>> >>>>>            make an effort to become friends with them, then we can
>>> >>>>> encourage
>>> >>>>>            newcomers to contribute and learn to become hackers by
>>> >>>>> involving them
>>> >>>>>            with our projects.  Instead of rejecting them, we
>>> should be
>>> >>>>> trying to
>>> >>>>>            encourage them to become productive participants in our
>>> >>>>> community.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>            -Carl
>>> >>>>>            _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>  https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> --
>>> >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
>>> >>>>> Albert
>>> >>>>> Einstein
>>> >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>>> >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but
>>> when
>>> >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exup?ry
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
>>> Albert
>>> >>> Einstein
>>> >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>>> >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
>>> >>> there
>>> >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exup?ry
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> >>>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
>> Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>
>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Da_Vinci>
>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry>
>>
>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
> Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Da_Vinci>
> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry>
> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>


-- 
Sincerely,

Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck

biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker

http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org

"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/attachments/20120503/c5b574d2/attachment.htm 


More information about the Noisebridge-discuss mailing list