[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave

Corey McGuire coreyfro at coreyfro.com
Thu May 3 17:47:12 PDT 2012


I've dealt with her, too.  I was in a political discussion group that she,
personally, train wrecked.  It's OK.  I'm not pissed.

I don't understand how this normally inclusive place has suddenly gotten
exclusive.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:44 PM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <
frantisekapfelbeck at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi to all:
>
> Having dealt with her personally she is a troubled soul. She needs help
> but Noisebridge is not the place for her.
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>
> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>
> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>
> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>wrote:
>
>> OK, I read the meeting notes.  This...is...in fact...bullshit.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Joe, I have no idea who you are.  As far as I know, I've never seen you
>>> there.  Who's the troll?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner <doomvox at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Uh huh.  And when people aren't actually willing to show their face to
>>>> talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet troll that
>>>> doesn't need to be taken seriously.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>> > yes because whenever people say something is too horrible to possibly
>>>> > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about everything else, it
>>>> just
>>>> > sounds like there's really nothing to say and they're trying to cover
>>>> the
>>>> > lack of justification for what they did with secrecy.
>>>> >
>>>> > let's hear it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The people who were actually there and made the call, did not want to
>>>> >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the meeting.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for the people who don't
>>>> >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com
>>>> >
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Irony is lost on this one.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of FUCKING GOD or ALLAH
>>>> or
>>>> >>> SATAN
>>>> >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Feynman, help us.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions are making
>>>> noisebridge
>>>> >>>> look bad.  and getting the police to come over.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> You know...it's funny.  I still have no idea what she did wrong.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra hospodar
>>>> >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>      The last time I talked to her about it, Erica was no longer
>>>> >>>>> feeling
>>>> >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her she wasn't
>>>> >>>>>      enough of a hacker and she should leave.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>      This after she had to ask him to stop calling her at 3am.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>      R.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>      On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake" <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>            I couldn't have said it better myself.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            Why is Erica no longer feeling welcome?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            I have to say,  I have noticed that some people
>>>> (including
>>>> >>>>> Jesse for sure)
>>>> >>>>>            seem to be fulfilling my prediction that we could swing
>>>> >>>>> around
>>>> >>>>> into the
>>>> >>>>>            reactionary zone after we started dealing with the
>>>> >>>>> occupiers.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            Please re-read the below and let's not make the same
>>>> >>>>> mistakes
>>>> >>>>> again.
>>>> >>>>>            Calling the police is a LAST RESORT and shows bad
>>>> judgement
>>>> >>>>> on
>>>> >>>>> the part of
>>>> >>>>>            the people who did it.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            What would Jesse or Will have done if a couple of
>>>> female
>>>> >>>>> members told them
>>>> >>>>>            to leave?
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            Carl said:
>>>> >>>>>            You know I don't post here all that much, but I really
>>>> felt
>>>> >>>>> that I had
>>>> >>>>>            to respond to this...
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            I've read through all of the comments about what
>>>> transpired
>>>> >>>>> with
>>>> >>>>>            Cynthia, on the discuss list and the meeting notes.
>>>> >>>>>  Although
>>>> >>>>> I haven't
>>>> >>>>>            been present at Noisebridge during the past week, from
>>>> what
>>>> >>>>> I've read so
>>>> >>>>>            far, I am really not pleased about how people involved
>>>> in
>>>> >>>>> this
>>>> >>>>> situation
>>>> >>>>>            treated her.  (This would include Jesse, Will, and
>>>> >>>>> apparently
>>>> >>>>> a third
>>>> >>>>>            man.)
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            First of all, calling the police really should not be
>>>> done
>>>> >>>>> unless:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            1. Someone is harming or threatening harm to another
>>>> person,
>>>> >>>>> causing
>>>> >>>>>            damage to the space, stealing, or otherwise causing
>>>> trouble
>>>> >>>>> or
>>>> >>>>>            performing an illegal activity.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            2. A person who has been officially banned from the
>>>> space
>>>> >>>>> refuses to
>>>> >>>>>            leave.  And by "official", I mean a due process has
>>>> been
>>>> >>>>> followed
>>>> >>>>>            whereas a previous discussion and consensus was taken
>>>> to ban
>>>> >>>>> a
>>>> >>>>>            particular person.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge community are unable
>>>> to
>>>> >>>>> handle the
>>>> >>>>>            situation on our own should we get the police involved.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            I find it troubling when individuals take it upon
>>>> themselves
>>>> >>>>> to forcibly
>>>> >>>>>            remove people from the space, who by all accounts of
>>>> what
>>>> >>>>> I've
>>>> >>>>> read, did
>>>> >>>>>            NOT cause any trouble prior to being asked to leave.  I
>>>> >>>>> believe it was
>>>> >>>>>            wrong for Jesse and Will to have done what they did in
>>>> this
>>>> >>>>> case, prior
>>>> >>>>>            to taking it up at a meeting where the members could
>>>> discuss
>>>> >>>>> and make a
>>>> >>>>>            decision as to whether to ban Cynthia from the space,
>>>> AND
>>>> >>>>> ONLY
>>>> >>>>> AFTER
>>>> >>>>>            this discussion and consensus would it be appropriate
>>>> to ask
>>>> >>>>> someone to
>>>> >>>>>            not return.  (and as she brought up, informing her of
>>>> this
>>>> >>>>> could have
>>>> >>>>>            been done through email prior to her arrival in order
>>>> to
>>>> >>>>> avoid
>>>> >>>>> this
>>>> >>>>>            confrontation.)
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            I am also troubled by the flippant and immature
>>>> responses on
>>>> >>>>> this list
>>>> >>>>>            about Cynthia being "crazy".  Her past talk of legal
>>>> actions
>>>> >>>>> against
>>>> >>>>>            Texas corporations has no bearing on what transpired.
>>>>  As
>>>> >>>>> far
>>>> >>>>> as I can
>>>> >>>>>            tell, she hasn't forng more people than prior to when
>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> Oogles started
>>>> >>>>>            arriving at the space.  The first time Noisebridge ever
>>>> >>>>> banned
>>>> >>>>> anyone,
>>>> >>>>>            it took considerable discussion and a consensus
>>>> process.
>>>> >>>>>  Nowadays it
>>>> >>>>>            seems like any member can just ban anyone they don't
>>>> like.
>>>> >>>>>  How and why
>>>> >>>>>            did we get to this point?  And I'm not just talking
>>>> about
>>>> >>>>> Cynthia here,
>>>> >>>>>            but others as well.  (take Erica for example, who no
>>>> longer
>>>> >>>>> feels
>>>> >>>>>            welcome here.)
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            And lastly, I think we need to stop this witch-hunt
>>>> >>>>> non-hacker
>>>> >>>>> hate
>>>> >>>>>            mentality that we seem to be developing here, which
>>>> will
>>>> >>>>> only
>>>> >>>>> drive away
>>>> >>>>>            new people who may not be familiar with hacker
>>>> culture.  If
>>>> >>>>> we
>>>> >>>>> try to
>>>> >>>>>            make an effort to become friends with them, then we can
>>>> >>>>> encourage
>>>> >>>>>            newcomers to contribute and learn to become hackers by
>>>> >>>>> involving them
>>>> >>>>>            with our projects.  Instead of rejecting them, we
>>>> should be
>>>> >>>>> trying to
>>>> >>>>>            encourage them to become productive participants in our
>>>> >>>>> community.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>            -Carl
>>>> >>>>>            _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>  https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> --
>>>> >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
>>>> >>>>> Albert
>>>> >>>>> Einstein
>>>> >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>>>> >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but
>>>> when
>>>> >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exup?ry
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
>>>> Albert
>>>> >>> Einstein
>>>> >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>>>> >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but
>>>> when
>>>> >>> there
>>>> >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exup?ry
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
>>> Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>
>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Da_Vinci>
>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry>
>>>
>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
>> Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>
>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Da_Vinci>
>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry>
>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>
> biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>
> http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>
> "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Ghandi
>
>


-- 
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
Einstein <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein>
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da
Vinci<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonardo_Da_Vinci>
Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there
is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
Exupéry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry>
Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly
Johnson<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Johnson>
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