[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave

jim jim at systemateka.com
Thu May 3 17:52:00 PDT 2012


Why? 


On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:
> OK, I read the meeting notes.  This...is...in fact...bullshit.
> 
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> wrote:
>         Joe, I have no idea who you are.  As far as I know, I've never
>         seen you there.  Who's the troll?
>         
>         
>         On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner
>         <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
>                 Uh huh.  And when people aren't actually willing to
>                 show their face to
>                 talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet
>                 troll that
>                 doesn't need to be taken seriously.
>                 
>                 On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org>
>                 wrote:
>                 > yes because whenever people say something is too
>                 horrible to possibly
>                 > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about
>                 everything else, it just
>                 > sounds like there's really nothing to say and
>                 they're trying to cover the
>                 > lack of justification for what they did with
>                 secrecy.
>                 >
>                 > let's hear it.
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>                 >
>                 >> The people who were actually there and made the
>                 call, did not want to
>                 >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the
>                 meeting.
>                 >>
>                 >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for
>                 the people who don't
>                 >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
>                 >>
>                 >>
>                 >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire
>                 <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
>                 >> wrote:
>                 >>>
>                 >>> Irony is lost on this one.
>                 >>>
>                 >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of
>                 FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or
>                 >>> SATAN
>                 >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
>                 >>>
>                 >>> Feynman, help us.
>                 >>>
>                 >>>
>                 >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake
>                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>                 >>>>
>                 >>>>
>                 >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions
>                 are making noisebridge
>                 >>>> look bad.  and getting the police to come over.
>                 >>>>
>                 >>>>
>                 >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
>                 >>>>
>                 >>>>> You know...it's funny.  I still have no idea
>                 what she did wrong.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra
>                 hospodar
>                 >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>      The last time I talked to her about it,
>                 Erica was no longer
>                 >>>>> feeling
>                 >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her
>                 she wasn't
>                 >>>>>      enough of a hacker and she should leave.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>      This after she had to ask him to stop
>                 calling her at 3am.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>      R.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>      On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"
>                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>                 >>>>>            I couldn't have said it better
>                 myself.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            Why is Erica no longer feeling
>                 welcome?
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            I have to say,  I have noticed that
>                 some people (including
>                 >>>>> Jesse for sure)
>                 >>>>>            seem to be fulfilling my prediction
>                 that we could swing
>                 >>>>> around
>                 >>>>> into the
>                 >>>>>            reactionary zone after we started
>                 dealing with the
>                 >>>>> occupiers.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            Please re-read the below and let's
>                 not make the same
>                 >>>>> mistakes
>                 >>>>> again.
>                 >>>>>            Calling the police is a LAST RESORT
>                 and shows bad judgement
>                 >>>>> on
>                 >>>>> the part of
>                 >>>>>            the people who did it.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            What would Jesse or Will have done if
>                 a couple of female
>                 >>>>> members told them
>                 >>>>>            to leave?
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            Carl said:
>                 >>>>>            You know I don't post here all that
>                 much, but I really felt
>                 >>>>> that I had
>                 >>>>>            to respond to this...
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            I've read through all of the comments
>                 about what transpired
>                 >>>>> with
>                 >>>>>            Cynthia, on the discuss list and the
>                 meeting notes.
>                 >>>>>  Although
>                 >>>>> I haven't
>                 >>>>>            been present at Noisebridge during
>                 the past week, from what
>                 >>>>> I've read so
>                 >>>>>            far, I am really not pleased about
>                 how people involved in
>                 >>>>> this
>                 >>>>> situation
>                 >>>>>            treated her.  (This would include
>                 Jesse, Will, and
>                 >>>>> apparently
>                 >>>>> a third
>                 >>>>>            man.)
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            First of all, calling the police
>                 really should not be done
>                 >>>>> unless:
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            1. Someone is harming or threatening
>                 harm to another person,
>                 >>>>> causing
>                 >>>>>            damage to the space, stealing, or
>                 otherwise causing trouble
>                 >>>>> or
>                 >>>>>            performing an illegal activity.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            2. A person who has been officially
>                 banned from the space
>                 >>>>> refuses to
>                 >>>>>            leave.  And by "official", I mean a
>                 due process has been
>                 >>>>> followed
>                 >>>>>            whereas a previous discussion and
>                 consensus was taken to ban
>                 >>>>> a
>                 >>>>>            particular person.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge
>                 community are unable to
>                 >>>>> handle the
>                 >>>>>            situation on our own should we get
>                 the police involved.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            I find it troubling when individuals
>                 take it upon themselves
>                 >>>>> to forcibly
>                 >>>>>            remove people from the space, who by
>                 all accounts of what
>                 >>>>> I've
>                 >>>>> read, did
>                 >>>>>            NOT cause any trouble prior to being
>                 asked to leave.  I
>                 >>>>> believe it was
>                 >>>>>            wrong for Jesse and Will to have done
>                 what they did in this
>                 >>>>> case, prior
>                 >>>>>            to taking it up at a meeting where
>                 the members could discuss
>                 >>>>> and make a
>                 >>>>>            decision as to whether to ban Cynthia
>                 from the space, AND
>                 >>>>> ONLY
>                 >>>>> AFTER
>                 >>>>>            this discussion and consensus would
>                 it be appropriate to ask
>                 >>>>> someone to
>                 >>>>>            not return.  (and as she brought up,
>                 informing her of this
>                 >>>>> could have
>                 >>>>>            been done through email prior to her
>                 arrival in order to
>                 >>>>> avoid
>                 >>>>> this
>                 >>>>>            confrontation.)
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            I am also troubled by the flippant
>                 and immature responses on
>                 >>>>> this list
>                 >>>>>            about Cynthia being "crazy".  Her
>                 past talk of legal actions
>                 >>>>> against
>                 >>>>>            Texas corporations has no bearing on
>                 what transpired.  As
>                 >>>>> far
>                 >>>>> as I can
>                 >>>>>            tell, she hasn't forng more people
>                 than prior to when the
>                 >>>>> Oogles started
>                 >>>>>            arriving at the space.  The first
>                 time Noisebridge ever
>                 >>>>> banned
>                 >>>>> anyone,
>                 >>>>>            it took considerable discussion and a
>                 consensus process.
>                 >>>>>  Nowadays it
>                 >>>>>            seems like any member can just ban
>                 anyone they don't like.
>                 >>>>>  How and why
>                 >>>>>            did we get to this point?  And I'm
>                 not just talking about
>                 >>>>> Cynthia here,
>                 >>>>>            but others as well.  (take Erica for
>                 example, who no longer
>                 >>>>> feels
>                 >>>>>            welcome here.)
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            And lastly, I think we need to stop
>                 this witch-hunt
>                 >>>>> non-hacker
>                 >>>>> hate
>                 >>>>>            mentality that we seem to be
>                 developing here, which will
>                 >>>>> only
>                 >>>>> drive away
>                 >>>>>            new people who may not be familiar
>                 with hacker culture.  If
>                 >>>>> we
>                 >>>>> try to
>                 >>>>>            make an effort to become friends with
>                 them, then we can
>                 >>>>> encourage
>                 >>>>>            newcomers to contribute and learn to
>                 become hackers by
>                 >>>>> involving them
>                 >>>>>            with our projects.  Instead of
>                 rejecting them, we should be
>                 >>>>> trying to
>                 >>>>>            encourage them to become productive
>                 participants in our
>                 >>>>> community.
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>            -Carl
>                 >>>>>
>                  _______________________________________________
>                 >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>                 >>>>>
>                  Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                  https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>> _______________________________________________
>                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>                 >>>>>
>                 https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>> --
>                 >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
>                 but no simpler -
>                 >>>>> Albert
>                 >>>>> Einstein
>                 >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
>                 Leonardo Da Vinci
>                 >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
>                 left to add, but when
>                 >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de
>                 Saint Exup?ry
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>                 >>>>>
>                 >>>
>                 >>>
>                 >>>
>                 >>> --
>                 >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
>                 but no simpler - Albert
>                 >>> Einstein
>                 >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
>                 Leonardo Da Vinci
>                 >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
>                 left to add, but when
>                 >>> there
>                 >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
>                 Exup?ry
>                 >>>
>                 >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>                 >>>
>                 >>> _______________________________________________
>                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>                 >>>
>                 https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>                 >>>
>                 >
>                 
>         
>         
>         
>         -- 
>         Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
>         simpler - Albert Einstein
>         Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>         
>         Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,
>         but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
>         Exupéry
>         
>         Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>         
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
> Albert Einstein
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss




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