[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave

Kelly hurtstotouchfire at gmail.com
Thu May 3 18:57:52 PDT 2012


I think one thing that people seem to be getting stuck on is that
Cynthia did nothing particularly wrong on the day she was kicked out.
This is totally correct. And perhaps this means that involving the
police was a bad move, but I think people are very mixed on that so I
wouldn't condemn it as unexcellent or anything because clearly it
depends who you ask.

In any case, the fact that Cynthia didn't do anything wrong at the
time doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be asked to leave. Most
conflicts with Cynthia don't escalate to the "justifies removal"
because frankly most people give up on talking to her before an actual
conflict develops. She has been consistently getting into conflicts
about the kitchen though. She is very possessive about the cans in the
recycling (which she sells) and she sometimes threatens people she
feels are using the kitchen incorrectly. However, her definition of
incorrect kitchen usage is very much not in line with the community's,
and she has not been receptive to attempts to explain other people's
perspectives. I was briefly involved as a mediator in one of these
conflicts and it was never resolved, the complaining party just chose
to avoid Cynthia entirely. I'm also bothered by the rumor that she
uses noisebridge's address as a residence, which apparently Miloh can
confirm.

I think the biggest failing of the community here is that we should
have addressed these issues with Cynthia in a meeting, but frankly
there are too many people that are misusing the space at this point,
so people are often burnt out and it's easier to just put it off. And
then eventually someone (usually Jesse) gets totally fed up and acts
outside the community structure. I have been encouraging him and
others to bring up these things at meetings, and sometimes that helps
prevent "lynch mob" behavior.

One thing that's really frustrating to me is that there are people
consistently on the mailing list being all conflict averse and saying
that things should involve due process, and most of them never come
participate in the process. If you want more people doing hand-holding
and mediating conflicts, come help. I'm moving to Boston in a few
months and then the only people able to mediate will be Danny and Tom.

-Kelly

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com> wrote:
> Read it.  It sounds like bullying.  I didn't see that Cynthia did anything
> wrong.  She just showed up, and people took offense to that.  That is
> bullshit.
>
> Look, there is a very good chance that I am going to bring non-hackers in to
> noisebridge.  I may even hang out with them, there.  If I am supposed to
> worry about the qualifications of every single person I invite in to
> noisebridge, noisebridge is going to suffer from the lack of diversity.
>
> People.  This is a lonely person picked on by people who judge her.  Tell me
> she's the only person that has ever happened to.
>
> Guess what?  Noisebridge is a play ground, and now we have our own bullies.
>
> Fuck...that...noise.
>
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Why?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:
>> > OK, I read the meeting notes.  This...is...in fact...bullshit.
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >         Joe, I have no idea who you are.  As far as I know, I've never
>> >         seen you there.  Who's the troll?
>> >
>> >
>> >         On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner
>> >         <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >                 Uh huh.  And when people aren't actually willing to
>> >                 show their face to
>> >                 talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet
>> >                 troll that
>> >                 doesn't need to be taken seriously.
>> >
>> >                 On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org>
>> >                 wrote:
>> >                 > yes because whenever people say something is too
>> >                 horrible to possibly
>> >                 > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about
>> >                 everything else, it just
>> >                 > sounds like there's really nothing to say and
>> >                 they're trying to cover the
>> >                 > lack of justification for what they did with
>> >                 secrecy.
>> >                 >
>> >                 > let's hear it.
>> >                 >
>> >                 >
>> >                 > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
>> >                 >
>> >                 >> The people who were actually there and made the
>> >                 call, did not want to
>> >                 >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the
>> >                 meeting.
>> >                 >>
>> >                 >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for
>> >                 the people who don't
>> >                 >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
>> >                 >>
>> >                 >>
>> >                 >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire
>> >                 <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
>> >                 >> wrote:
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> Irony is lost on this one.
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of
>> >                 FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or
>> >                 >>> SATAN
>> >                 >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> Feynman, help us.
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake
>> >                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>> >                 >>>>
>> >                 >>>>
>> >                 >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions
>> >                 are making noisebridge
>> >                 >>>> look bad.  and getting the police to come over.
>> >                 >>>>
>> >                 >>>>
>> >                 >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
>> >                 >>>>
>> >                 >>>>> You know...it's funny.  I still have no idea
>> >                 what she did wrong.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra
>> >                 hospodar
>> >                 >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>      The last time I talked to her about it,
>> >                 Erica was no longer
>> >                 >>>>> feeling
>> >                 >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her
>> >                 she wasn't
>> >                 >>>>>      enough of a hacker and she should leave.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>      This after she had to ask him to stop
>> >                 calling her at 3am.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>      R.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>      On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"
>> >                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>> >                 >>>>>            I couldn't have said it better
>> >                 myself.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            Why is Erica no longer feeling
>> >                 welcome?
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            I have to say,  I have noticed that
>> >                 some people (including
>> >                 >>>>> Jesse for sure)
>> >                 >>>>>            seem to be fulfilling my prediction
>> >                 that we could swing
>> >                 >>>>> around
>> >                 >>>>> into the
>> >                 >>>>>            reactionary zone after we started
>> >                 dealing with the
>> >                 >>>>> occupiers.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            Please re-read the below and let's
>> >                 not make the same
>> >                 >>>>> mistakes
>> >                 >>>>> again.
>> >                 >>>>>            Calling the police is a LAST RESORT
>> >                 and shows bad judgement
>> >                 >>>>> on
>> >                 >>>>> the part of
>> >                 >>>>>            the people who did it.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            What would Jesse or Will have done if
>> >                 a couple of female
>> >                 >>>>> members told them
>> >                 >>>>>            to leave?
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            Carl said:
>> >                 >>>>>            You know I don't post here all that
>> >                 much, but I really felt
>> >                 >>>>> that I had
>> >                 >>>>>            to respond to this...
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            I've read through all of the comments
>> >                 about what transpired
>> >                 >>>>> with
>> >                 >>>>>            Cynthia, on the discuss list and the
>> >                 meeting notes.
>> >                 >>>>>  Although
>> >                 >>>>> I haven't
>> >                 >>>>>            been present at Noisebridge during
>> >                 the past week, from what
>> >                 >>>>> I've read so
>> >                 >>>>>            far, I am really not pleased about
>> >                 how people involved in
>> >                 >>>>> this
>> >                 >>>>> situation
>> >                 >>>>>            treated her.  (This would include
>> >                 Jesse, Will, and
>> >                 >>>>> apparently
>> >                 >>>>> a third
>> >                 >>>>>            man.)
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            First of all, calling the police
>> >                 really should not be done
>> >                 >>>>> unless:
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            1. Someone is harming or threatening
>> >                 harm to another person,
>> >                 >>>>> causing
>> >                 >>>>>            damage to the space, stealing, or
>> >                 otherwise causing trouble
>> >                 >>>>> or
>> >                 >>>>>            performing an illegal activity.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            2. A person who has been officially
>> >                 banned from the space
>> >                 >>>>> refuses to
>> >                 >>>>>            leave.  And by "official", I mean a
>> >                 due process has been
>> >                 >>>>> followed
>> >                 >>>>>            whereas a previous discussion and
>> >                 consensus was taken to ban
>> >                 >>>>> a
>> >                 >>>>>            particular person.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge
>> >                 community are unable to
>> >                 >>>>> handle the
>> >                 >>>>>            situation on our own should we get
>> >                 the police involved.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            I find it troubling when individuals
>> >                 take it upon themselves
>> >                 >>>>> to forcibly
>> >                 >>>>>            remove people from the space, who by
>> >                 all accounts of what
>> >                 >>>>> I've
>> >                 >>>>> read, did
>> >                 >>>>>            NOT cause any trouble prior to being
>> >                 asked to leave.  I
>> >                 >>>>> believe it was
>> >                 >>>>>            wrong for Jesse and Will to have done
>> >                 what they did in this
>> >                 >>>>> case, prior
>> >                 >>>>>            to taking it up at a meeting where
>> >                 the members could discuss
>> >                 >>>>> and make a
>> >                 >>>>>            decision as to whether to ban Cynthia
>> >                 from the space, AND
>> >                 >>>>> ONLY
>> >                 >>>>> AFTER
>> >                 >>>>>            this discussion and consensus would
>> >                 it be appropriate to ask
>> >                 >>>>> someone to
>> >                 >>>>>            not return.  (and as she brought up,
>> >                 informing her of this
>> >                 >>>>> could have
>> >                 >>>>>            been done through email prior to her
>> >                 arrival in order to
>> >                 >>>>> avoid
>> >                 >>>>> this
>> >                 >>>>>            confrontation.)
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            I am also troubled by the flippant
>> >                 and immature responses on
>> >                 >>>>> this list
>> >                 >>>>>            about Cynthia being "crazy".  Her
>> >                 past talk of legal actions
>> >                 >>>>> against
>> >                 >>>>>            Texas corporations has no bearing on
>> >                 what transpired.  As
>> >                 >>>>> far
>> >                 >>>>> as I can
>> >                 >>>>>            tell, she hasn't forng more people
>> >                 than prior to when the
>> >                 >>>>> Oogles started
>> >                 >>>>>            arriving at the space.  The first
>> >                 time Noisebridge ever
>> >                 >>>>> banned
>> >                 >>>>> anyone,
>> >                 >>>>>            it took considerable discussion and a
>> >                 consensus process.
>> >                 >>>>>  Nowadays it
>> >                 >>>>>            seems like any member can just ban
>> >                 anyone they don't like.
>> >                 >>>>>  How and why
>> >                 >>>>>            did we get to this point?  And I'm
>> >                 not just talking about
>> >                 >>>>> Cynthia here,
>> >                 >>>>>            but others as well.  (take Erica for
>> >                 example, who no longer
>> >                 >>>>> feels
>> >                 >>>>>            welcome here.)
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            And lastly, I think we need to stop
>> >                 this witch-hunt
>> >                 >>>>> non-hacker
>> >                 >>>>> hate
>> >                 >>>>>            mentality that we seem to be
>> >                 developing here, which will
>> >                 >>>>> only
>> >                 >>>>> drive away
>> >                 >>>>>            new people who may not be familiar
>> >                 with hacker culture.  If
>> >                 >>>>> we
>> >                 >>>>> try to
>> >                 >>>>>            make an effort to become friends with
>> >                 them, then we can
>> >                 >>>>> encourage
>> >                 >>>>>            newcomers to contribute and learn to
>> >                 become hackers by
>> >                 >>>>> involving them
>> >                 >>>>>            with our projects.  Instead of
>> >                 rejecting them, we should be
>> >                 >>>>> trying to
>> >                 >>>>>            encourage them to become productive
>> >                 participants in our
>> >                 >>>>> community.
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>            -Carl
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                  _______________________________________________
>> >                 >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                  Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >
>> >  https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >
>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>> --
>> >                 >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
>> >                 but no simpler -
>> >                 >>>>> Albert
>> >                 >>>>> Einstein
>> >                 >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
>> >                 Leonardo Da Vinci
>> >                 >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
>> >                 left to add, but when
>> >                 >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de
>> >                 Saint Exup?ry
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>> >                 >>>>>
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> --
>> >                 >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
>> >                 but no simpler - Albert
>> >                 >>> Einstein
>> >                 >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
>> >                 Leonardo Da Vinci
>> >                 >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
>> >                 left to add, but when
>> >                 >>> there
>> >                 >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
>> >                 Exup?ry
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >>> _______________________________________________
>> >                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >                 >>>
>> >
>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >                 >>>
>> >                 >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >         --
>> >         Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
>> >         simpler - Albert Einstein
>> >         Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>> >
>> >         Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,
>> >         but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
>> >         Exupéry
>> >
>> >         Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
>> > Albert Einstein
>> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
>> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
>> > there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
>> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
> Einstein
> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there
> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>


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