[Noisebridge-discuss] Lack of due process when Cynthia forced to leave

jim jim at well.com
Thu May 3 19:42:35 PDT 2012


    As to me, if I know a meeting will involve something like 
banning, I make an effort to make it, despite wanting to be 
in bed before 8 PM. 
    It seems that such issues may arise without "benefit" of 
meeting. What to do? 

    Also, some of us conflict-averse hand-wringers worry about 
the affects of these events on people both in and tangential 
to our community. That there has been a sequence of events 
with a similar "taste" and "smell" has had an amplifying 
negative affect on a fairly large number of people. The 
reputation of Noisebridge is increasingly stained. What to do? 



On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 18:57 -0700, Kelly wrote:
> I think one thing that people seem to be getting stuck on is that
> Cynthia did nothing particularly wrong on the day she was kicked out.
> This is totally correct. And perhaps this means that involving the
> police was a bad move, but I think people are very mixed on that so I
> wouldn't condemn it as unexcellent or anything because clearly it
> depends who you ask.
> 
> In any case, the fact that Cynthia didn't do anything wrong at the
> time doesn't mean that she doesn't deserve to be asked to leave. Most
> conflicts with Cynthia don't escalate to the "justifies removal"
> because frankly most people give up on talking to her before an actual
> conflict develops. She has been consistently getting into conflicts
> about the kitchen though. She is very possessive about the cans in the
> recycling (which she sells) and she sometimes threatens people she
> feels are using the kitchen incorrectly. However, her definition of
> incorrect kitchen usage is very much not in line with the community's,
> and she has not been receptive to attempts to explain other people's
> perspectives. I was briefly involved as a mediator in one of these
> conflicts and it was never resolved, the complaining party just chose
> to avoid Cynthia entirely. I'm also bothered by the rumor that she
> uses noisebridge's address as a residence, which apparently Miloh can
> confirm.
> 
> I think the biggest failing of the community here is that we should
> have addressed these issues with Cynthia in a meeting, but frankly
> there are too many people that are misusing the space at this point,
> so people are often burnt out and it's easier to just put it off. And
> then eventually someone (usually Jesse) gets totally fed up and acts
> outside the community structure. I have been encouraging him and
> others to bring up these things at meetings, and sometimes that helps
> prevent "lynch mob" behavior.
> 
> One thing that's really frustrating to me is that there are people
> consistently on the mailing list being all conflict averse and saying
> that things should involve due process, and most of them never come
> participate in the process. If you want more people doing hand-holding
> and mediating conflicts, come help. I'm moving to Boston in a few
> months and then the only people able to mediate will be Danny and Tom.
> 
> -Kelly
> 
> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com> wrote:
> > Read it.  It sounds like bullying.  I didn't see that Cynthia did anything
> > wrong.  She just showed up, and people took offense to that.  That is
> > bullshit.
> >
> > Look, there is a very good chance that I am going to bring non-hackers in to
> > noisebridge.  I may even hang out with them, there.  If I am supposed to
> > worry about the qualifications of every single person I invite in to
> > noisebridge, noisebridge is going to suffer from the lack of diversity.
> >
> > People.  This is a lonely person picked on by people who judge her.  Tell me
> > she's the only person that has ever happened to.
> >
> > Guess what?  Noisebridge is a play ground, and now we have our own bullies.
> >
> > Fuck...that...noise.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:52 PM, jim <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Why?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 2012-05-03 at 17:42 -0700, Corey McGuire wrote:
> >> > OK, I read the meeting notes.  This...is...in fact...bullshit.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Corey McGuire <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >         Joe, I have no idea who you are.  As far as I know, I've never
> >> >         seen you there.  Who's the troll?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >         On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Joseph Brenner
> >> >         <doomvox at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >                 Uh huh.  And when people aren't actually willing to
> >> >                 show their face to
> >> >                 talk something out, they sound a lot like an internet
> >> >                 troll that
> >> >                 doesn't need to be taken seriously.
> >> >
> >> >                 On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org>
> >> >                 wrote:
> >> >                 > yes because whenever people say something is too
> >> >                 horrible to possibly
> >> >                 > discuss in an open listserve, where we talk about
> >> >                 everything else, it just
> >> >                 > sounds like there's really nothing to say and
> >> >                 they're trying to cover the
> >> >                 > lack of justification for what they did with
> >> >                 secrecy.
> >> >                 >
> >> >                 > let's hear it.
> >> >                 >
> >> >                 >
> >> >                 > On Thu, 3 May 2012, Joseph Brenner wrote:
> >> >                 >
> >> >                 >> The people who were actually there and made the
> >> >                 call, did not want to
> >> >                 >> discuss it on list, they wanted to save it for the
> >> >                 meeting.
> >> >                 >>
> >> >                 >> Would hashing things out a second time here, for
> >> >                 the people who don't
> >> >                 >> go to meetings, actually help in any way?
> >> >                 >>
> >> >                 >>
> >> >                 >> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Corey McGuire
> >> >                 <coreyfro at coreyfro.com>
> >> >                 >> wrote:
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> Irony is lost on this one.
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> How about this, "Will someone, for the love of
> >> >                 FUCKING GOD or ALLAH or
> >> >                 >>> SATAN
> >> >                 >>> or STALLMAN tell me what the fuck she did wrong?"
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> Feynman, help us.
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Jake
> >> >                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> >> >                 >>>>
> >> >                 >>>>
> >> >                 >>>> except that it's not funny, and Jesse's actions
> >> >                 are making noisebridge
> >> >                 >>>> look bad.  and getting the police to come over.
> >> >                 >>>>
> >> >                 >>>>
> >> >                 >>>> On Thu, 3 May 2012, Corey McGuire wrote:
> >> >                 >>>>
> >> >                 >>>>> You know...it's funny.  I still have no idea
> >> >                 what she did wrong.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>> On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:43 PM, rachel lyra
> >> >                 hospodar
> >> >                 >>>>> <rachelyra at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>      The last time I talked to her about it,
> >> >                 Erica was no longer
> >> >                 >>>>> feeling
> >> >                 >>>>> welcome because Jesse (the same jesse) told her
> >> >                 she wasn't
> >> >                 >>>>>      enough of a hacker and she should leave.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>      This after she had to ask him to stop
> >> >                 calling her at 3am.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>      R.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>      On May 3, 2012 3:02 PM, "Jake"
> >> >                 <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> >> >                 >>>>>            I couldn't have said it better
> >> >                 myself.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            Why is Erica no longer feeling
> >> >                 welcome?
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            I have to say,  I have noticed that
> >> >                 some people (including
> >> >                 >>>>> Jesse for sure)
> >> >                 >>>>>            seem to be fulfilling my prediction
> >> >                 that we could swing
> >> >                 >>>>> around
> >> >                 >>>>> into the
> >> >                 >>>>>            reactionary zone after we started
> >> >                 dealing with the
> >> >                 >>>>> occupiers.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            Please re-read the below and let's
> >> >                 not make the same
> >> >                 >>>>> mistakes
> >> >                 >>>>> again.
> >> >                 >>>>>            Calling the police is a LAST RESORT
> >> >                 and shows bad judgement
> >> >                 >>>>> on
> >> >                 >>>>> the part of
> >> >                 >>>>>            the people who did it.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            What would Jesse or Will have done if
> >> >                 a couple of female
> >> >                 >>>>> members told them
> >> >                 >>>>>            to leave?
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            Carl said:
> >> >                 >>>>>            You know I don't post here all that
> >> >                 much, but I really felt
> >> >                 >>>>> that I had
> >> >                 >>>>>            to respond to this...
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            I've read through all of the comments
> >> >                 about what transpired
> >> >                 >>>>> with
> >> >                 >>>>>            Cynthia, on the discuss list and the
> >> >                 meeting notes.
> >> >                 >>>>>  Although
> >> >                 >>>>> I haven't
> >> >                 >>>>>            been present at Noisebridge during
> >> >                 the past week, from what
> >> >                 >>>>> I've read so
> >> >                 >>>>>            far, I am really not pleased about
> >> >                 how people involved in
> >> >                 >>>>> this
> >> >                 >>>>> situation
> >> >                 >>>>>            treated her.  (This would include
> >> >                 Jesse, Will, and
> >> >                 >>>>> apparently
> >> >                 >>>>> a third
> >> >                 >>>>>            man.)
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            First of all, calling the police
> >> >                 really should not be done
> >> >                 >>>>> unless:
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            1. Someone is harming or threatening
> >> >                 harm to another person,
> >> >                 >>>>> causing
> >> >                 >>>>>            damage to the space, stealing, or
> >> >                 otherwise causing trouble
> >> >                 >>>>> or
> >> >                 >>>>>            performing an illegal activity.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            2. A person who has been officially
> >> >                 banned from the space
> >> >                 >>>>> refuses to
> >> >                 >>>>>            leave.  And by "official", I mean a
> >> >                 due process has been
> >> >                 >>>>> followed
> >> >                 >>>>>            whereas a previous discussion and
> >> >                 consensus was taken to ban
> >> >                 >>>>> a
> >> >                 >>>>>            particular person.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            3. AND ONLY AFTER the Noisebridge
> >> >                 community are unable to
> >> >                 >>>>> handle the
> >> >                 >>>>>            situation on our own should we get
> >> >                 the police involved.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            I find it troubling when individuals
> >> >                 take it upon themselves
> >> >                 >>>>> to forcibly
> >> >                 >>>>>            remove people from the space, who by
> >> >                 all accounts of what
> >> >                 >>>>> I've
> >> >                 >>>>> read, did
> >> >                 >>>>>            NOT cause any trouble prior to being
> >> >                 asked to leave.  I
> >> >                 >>>>> believe it was
> >> >                 >>>>>            wrong for Jesse and Will to have done
> >> >                 what they did in this
> >> >                 >>>>> case, prior
> >> >                 >>>>>            to taking it up at a meeting where
> >> >                 the members could discuss
> >> >                 >>>>> and make a
> >> >                 >>>>>            decision as to whether to ban Cynthia
> >> >                 from the space, AND
> >> >                 >>>>> ONLY
> >> >                 >>>>> AFTER
> >> >                 >>>>>            this discussion and consensus would
> >> >                 it be appropriate to ask
> >> >                 >>>>> someone to
> >> >                 >>>>>            not return.  (and as she brought up,
> >> >                 informing her of this
> >> >                 >>>>> could have
> >> >                 >>>>>            been done through email prior to her
> >> >                 arrival in order to
> >> >                 >>>>> avoid
> >> >                 >>>>> this
> >> >                 >>>>>            confrontation.)
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            I am also troubled by the flippant
> >> >                 and immature responses on
> >> >                 >>>>> this list
> >> >                 >>>>>            about Cynthia being "crazy".  Her
> >> >                 past talk of legal actions
> >> >                 >>>>> against
> >> >                 >>>>>            Texas corporations has no bearing on
> >> >                 what transpired.  As
> >> >                 >>>>> far
> >> >                 >>>>> as I can
> >> >                 >>>>>            tell, she hasn't forng more people
> >> >                 than prior to when the
> >> >                 >>>>> Oogles started
> >> >                 >>>>>            arriving at the space.  The first
> >> >                 time Noisebridge ever
> >> >                 >>>>> banned
> >> >                 >>>>> anyone,
> >> >                 >>>>>            it took considerable discussion and a
> >> >                 consensus process.
> >> >                 >>>>>  Nowadays it
> >> >                 >>>>>            seems like any member can just ban
> >> >                 anyone they don't like.
> >> >                 >>>>>  How and why
> >> >                 >>>>>            did we get to this point?  And I'm
> >> >                 not just talking about
> >> >                 >>>>> Cynthia here,
> >> >                 >>>>>            but others as well.  (take Erica for
> >> >                 example, who no longer
> >> >                 >>>>> feels
> >> >                 >>>>>            welcome here.)
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            And lastly, I think we need to stop
> >> >                 this witch-hunt
> >> >                 >>>>> non-hacker
> >> >                 >>>>> hate
> >> >                 >>>>>            mentality that we seem to be
> >> >                 developing here, which will
> >> >                 >>>>> only
> >> >                 >>>>> drive away
> >> >                 >>>>>            new people who may not be familiar
> >> >                 with hacker culture.  If
> >> >                 >>>>> we
> >> >                 >>>>> try to
> >> >                 >>>>>            make an effort to become friends with
> >> >                 them, then we can
> >> >                 >>>>> encourage
> >> >                 >>>>>            newcomers to contribute and learn to
> >> >                 become hackers by
> >> >                 >>>>> involving them
> >> >                 >>>>>            with our projects.  Instead of
> >> >                 rejecting them, we should be
> >> >                 >>>>> trying to
> >> >                 >>>>>            encourage them to become productive
> >> >                 participants in our
> >> >                 >>>>> community.
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>            -Carl
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                  _______________________________________________
> >> >                 >>>>>            Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                  Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >
> >> >  https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> >                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >                 >>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>> --
> >> >                 >>>>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
> >> >                 but no simpler -
> >> >                 >>>>> Albert
> >> >                 >>>>> Einstein
> >> >                 >>>>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> >> >                 Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> >                 >>>>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
> >> >                 left to add, but when
> >> >                 >>>>> there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de
> >> >                 Saint Exup?ry
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> >                 >>>>>
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> --
> >> >                 >>> Everything should be made as simple as possible,
> >> >                 but no simpler - Albert
> >> >                 >>> Einstein
> >> >                 >>> Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication -
> >> >                 Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> >                 >>> Perfection is reached not when there is nothing
> >> >                 left to add, but when
> >> >                 >>> there
> >> >                 >>> is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
> >> >                 Exup?ry
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> >                 >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> >                 >>>
> >> >                 >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >         --
> >> >         Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no
> >> >         simpler - Albert Einstein
> >> >         Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> >
> >> >         Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add,
> >> >         but when there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint
> >> >         Exupéry
> >> >
> >> >         Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler -
> >> > Albert Einstein
> >> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> >> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when
> >> > there is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> >> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler - Albert
> > Einstein
> > Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo Da Vinci
> > Perfection is reached not when there is nothing left to add, but when there
> > is nothing left to take away - Antoine de Saint Exupéry
> > Keep It Simple Stupid - Kelly Johnson
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss




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