[Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.
maltman23 at hotmail.com
Mon Apr 8 09:00:08 UTC 2013
I'll be at Noisebridge tomorrow (Monday) for Circuit Hacking Monday, and I'll determine if punching in a door-code (or a phone app) can make the lock buzz open (or not), and report back.
> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 00:57:04 -0700
> From: jake at spaz.org
> To: maltman23 at hotmail.com
> CC: danny at spesh.com; i at s.ai; noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> Subject: RE: [Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.
> We need to figure out what part of the system is broken.
> Does the door still open when a valid code is typed into the keypad?
> Are you talking about the doorbell noise? There is a switch on the
> upstairs intercom which turns the doorbell noise on and off. I labeled
> But to be sure, the door opening solenoid has had problems in the past.
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013, Mitch Altman wrote:
> > I should have written about this last Monday (but, sorry -- I forgot).
> > The door buzz-in system is broken. It worked fine last Monday
> > afternoon, but stopped working by Monday evening. No one during that
> > time tampered with it, as far as I know. But after we determined that
> > it wasn't working, someone went down to the gate and opened up the
> > mechanism, and closed it up again, and that made it function again for a
> > few DOOR presses. But, then it stopped working again.
> > Mitch.
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 02:39:10 -0700
> >> From: jake at spaz.org
> >> To: danny at spesh.com
> >> CC: i at s.ai; noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] The door situation is not working.
> >> On Sat, 6 Apr 2013, Danny O'Brien wrote:
> >>> Yeah, I think that the DOOR button is actually broken or *something*,
> >>> and that's what's annoying people right now.
> >>> Jake you know the door system better than anyone at this point -- is
> >>> there something that could be (sporadically or not) preventing the DOOR
> >>> button from working?
> >> I am going to assume someone disabled it. They should have made an
> >> announcement or something on the list. I made announcements several times
> >> that i was going to do it and was met with approval, but i never got
> >> around to it. I think it's a good idea and we should get used to it.
> >>> There seems to be a bunch of things like timers hanging off the door
> >>> system downstairs. Could they be causing problems?
> >> the stuff downstairs has nothing to do with the door button. There is a
> >> conventional 24-hour light timer for the lights that are supposed to
> >> illuminate people outside the gate at night (so we can see them on the
> >> camera) and a 12v power adaptor for the camera. There is also a 12v
> >> adaptor that goes nowhere, for the hard drive that used to be there and is
> >> gone now. The DOOR button wiring and buzzer wiring is all put away like
> >> it was before Noisebridge arrived.
> >>> Is there anyway we can simplify what we already have without causing
> >>> problems to your future plans?
> >> This is not about my plans. Noisebridge is a collective activity and we
> >> should discuss things together. Anyone interested in working on
> >> infrastructure should communicate with other people who are interested for
> >> maximum effect. I can try to answer any questions if they are asked of
> >> me.
> >>> Asked what? I know I'm probably being stupid, but after all these months
> >> Here's where i initially suggested it:
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034216.html
> >> Here are some people who liked it:
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034217.html
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034221.html
> >> here's what YOU said about it on 17 January of this year:
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-January/034236.html
> >> I also announced it at a meeting, and everyone thought it was great:
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Meeting_Notes_2013_02_19
> >>> I'm sure not entirely sure what the plan is. I *think* it's this:
> >>> 1) Door code to get in. Door code available to... who? Not sure. People
> >>> who mail doorcodes at noisebridge.net (not a real email address)? People
> >>> who come to Meeting? Probably the latter.
> >> I have been providing codes to people who email me and tell me enough
> >> about themselves that I think they belong at noisebridge. You can do the
> >> same. Someone should create the email address doorcodes at noisebridge so
> >> that myself and others with the ability to add codes can share the labor
> >> of giving people codes. I don't want a million people emailing me at my
> >> private email address for codes. We should share the work.
> >> But yes, some infrastructure for code distribution would be appropriate.
> >> I do NOT think we should make it so that anyone with a code can just
> >> create more codes. That is not reasonable. We need to have a flow of
> >> codes out from the people who help make noisebridge happen, and maintain
> >> control of that flow of access.
> >>> 2) Buzzer works to let people in, but you have to either go and press
> >>> the DOOR button or... type a code? Typing a code means that you've
> >>> agreed to greet people?
> >> I don't know what you mean my buzzer. There is a "doorbell" which makes
> >> an annoying noise. I want to adjust it so that when it is rung, a light
> >> begins blinking inside the space (near the door) and the "doorbell" sound
> >> is muted to a lower volume when pressed, until either the electric latch
> >> opens the door or a few minutes expire.
> >> If someone uses their code to open the door for someone else I presume
> >> they will make sure the person they let in belongs at noisebridge. At
> >> least more so than with the current setup where anyone can just push the
> >> door button.
> >>> 3) Keys still work. DOOR button will still work.
> >> the keys have always worked and will continue to work. The DOOR button
> >> has been disabled in favour of using codes, either at the keypad near the
> >> intercom or on ones Android app, or from a webpage on ones' PC.
> >>> Does that sound right? Are there extra stages in the future?
> >> the flamethrowers are being cobbled together but we need bigger solenoid
> >> valves, the ones we have keep getting stuck open.
> >>> Incidentally, I asked Jake if I could give door codes to everyone who is
> >>> subscribing to Pay Noisebridge. He said yes -- I think it's a good idea.
> >>> Do other people think that's a good idea?
> >> I think that if people can operate email and have made a commitment to
> >> support noisebridge to the tune of $10 per month they should definitely be
> >> able to have a code. Those people are likely capable of a reasonable
> >> conversation and are presumably willing to come to a meeting to discuss
> >> things if their behavior ever descends toward sleeping in the space or
> >> other unpleasantries. It's a low bar i'm setting, but it's better than
> >> propping the door open, which is effectively what we've been doing.
> >>> Yeah, but the problem is that lots of people like coming to visit us.
> >>> Almost none of them are bad people. The bad people will (and have)
> >>> worked out ways of getting keys or codes, or whatever.
> >> I think it's great that people come to visit. I look forward to the day
> >> when MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, having a good time,
> >> rather than being repelled by its occupation by people from "the street".
> >> When MORE NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE hang out at noisebridge, visitors ringing the
> >> doorbell will NOT be ignored but instead NOISEBRIDGE PEOPLE will rush to
> >> the camera and intercom to see who is there, and welcome them in with a
> >> proper introduction. If whoever is there can't be bothered to say hello
> >> through the intercom, or is recognized by one of the several NOISEBRIDGE
> >> PEOPLE as a sleeper or stealer or just known to be not interesting enough
> >> to buzz in, those people will talk about it and perhaps tell the person
> >> that Noisebridge isn't here right now so they can't come in.
> >>> The accepted cultural fix for this is to encourage people to greet and
> >>> check out people. But I agree that locking new people out is not a great
> >>> side-effect of trying to encourage this.
> >> If there is nobody at noisebridge with a code willing to let new people
> >> in, or willing to go down the steps to let people in, then it's not a good
> >> time for those people to get a good impression of noisebridge, don't you
> >> agree? I would rather they fail to enter at 2am on a friday night and
> >> instead come back saturday afternoon when hackers are up and hanging out
> >> and eager to give them a tour. Also if those people get on IRC someone
> >> can remotely let them in if they have a code.
> >> the fact is, our extreme open-door policy has allowed too many people
> >> whose habits and presence discourages our core membership demographic from
> >> wanting to be at noisebridge. That is a problem worth solving.
> >>>> 5. There is a switch on the intercom to turn off the doorbell, if it
> >>>> is annoying you and you don't feel like answering the door. Please
> >>>> turn it back on when you leave.
> >>> I don't think anyone understands all of those switches. I don't.
> >> there is only one switch and it is very clearly labeled. In english!
> >>>> 6. I will be adding an automatic mute for the doorbell, which turns
> >>>> on a blinking light over the door and reduces the volume of the
> >>>> doorbell until someone buzzes the door or a few minutes pass. Or
> >>>> you could do it.
> >>> Why is this a good idea? This just seems to be stopping people who buzz
> >>> from coming in, based on how grumpy at inconveniences people are inside.
> >>> We should maximise the convienience for new people *and* for people
> >>> inside. Punishing either of these people to handle bad people seems to
> >>> be the wrong incentive system.
> >> If the people in the space are not letting people in who are outside,
> >> either because they don't have a code or because they are grumpy, or more
> >> likely because it's 2AM and they don't want anyone without a code coming
> >> in, it's better to soften the sound of the doorbell and supplement it with
> >> a gently blinking reminder light for a few minutes don't you think?
> >> Otherwise people in the space are more likely to flip the DOORBELL SILENT
> >> switch (which I did not install but i did label) and forget to flip it
> >> back. I think gentle softening of the doorbell for a few minutes when
> >> it's clearly being ignored is a good idea.
> >>> I'm pretty sure that a large number of what problems we have come from
> >>> regular or second-time visitors, not newcomers.
> >> I agree that people who abuse noisebridge have usually been there a few
> >> times before, but I also think that those people tend to NOT have a code.
> >> And part of the reason they don't have a code is because if they tried to
> >> get one, which they wouldn't bother trying, they would be refused.
> >>>> In short, if someone is in the building they are already our
> >>>> (Noisebridge's) responsibility.
> >>> I follow the mailing list, and I still don't really understand this
> >>> either. What are the scenarios where someone gets buzzed in, but we
> >>> don't let them in through the door, thus causing them to wander the
> >>> building, terrifying the residents? Under what situations would this not
> >>> already happen, but would be fixed by any of the variants of the system
> >>> you're proposing?
> >> I have already written too many times the same post about how bad it would
> >> be if you tried to put a lock at the top of the steps. By the time
> >> someone ascends the steps and is standing on the other side of the door
> >> looking at you, if you refuse to let them in you're going to just piss
> >> them off until the next person coming up the stairs has to get in, and
> >> then they assault you.
> >> Or they will just learn to take up the elevator instead, further wearing
> >> away the last scraps of rust holding that thing together. I honestly
> >> think this issue is so absurd and dead that I don't want to even address
> >> it anymore and I would almost rather see what happens if people try it.
> >> If people are not welcome inside noisebridge, the proper place to lock
> >> them out is at the sidewalk. I am not going to argue this point anymore.
> >>> I know you talk a lot about your system, Jake, but I *really* don't
> >>> understand it. Everytime you explain it to me, I just have more
> >>> questions. And I know it's annoying for you, but I don't think I'm the
> >>> only one, if only because you regularly have to write emails like this
> >>> to people who don't get what's going on.
> >> I don't have a system. Noisebridge has a system, with various parts.
> >> Most of it is well documented. I know about much of it. If you have a
> >> particular question for me just ask it instead of writing a big paragraph
> >> accusing me of being a secret holder.
> >>> I would absolutely love you to just write out the whole thing, finally
> >>> and once and for all, and let everyone critique and improve the plan.
> >> I don't know what you want me to write out. 2169 mission has a metal gate
> >> keeping people out from the street. You can open it with a key, or a BART
> >> card, or you can activate an electrical solenoid by triggering a computer
> >> called minotaur.
> >> you can cause minotaur to open the gate either by typing a valid code into
> >> the payphone outside the gate, or into a keypad upstairs above the
> >> intercom. Or you can put a code into the android app. Or there's a
> >> webpage i think. There is a DOOR button but it apparently doesn't work
> >> anymore, which I think is good.
> >> i don't understand why you're suddenly acting like noisebridge operates on
> >> a deterministic systemized rulemaking process and you're demanding that I
> >> explain to you how it works.
> >> -jake
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> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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