[Noisebridge-discuss] Thought crimes at Noisebridge, and how can we stop them?

Danny O'Brien danny at spesh.com
Thu Dec 19 19:31:43 UTC 2013


Though to be fair Al, you yourself have used the "people have left
because of frustration with governance" before, too.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can you... give a number of people? Jim, this is a somewhat frustrating
> pattern with you. I'll copy and paste my part of my reply from our recent
> off-list email conversation because it fits here perfectly well: "I don't
> really know how to respond: Rumors of unspecified behavior of unspecified
> people claiming to dictate unspecified things to unspecified others is about
> as vague as you can get."
>
> Until we can start dealing with things in a concrete way, I'm just going to
> slap up a [citation needed] and move on.
>
> I'm not saying you're making this stuff up, but I need to get an accurate
> idea of who has problems, what the problems are, and how big they are. And I
> don't want to discourage you from speaking up: quite the opposite, I need
> you to tell me *more* details.
>
> -Al
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:42 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Al,
>>     Your questions are good and thank you for
>> your response.
>>     I will not name names, nor will I dig up
>> info that might allow surmise, other than you
>> and me. I admire you and your seeming pure-
>> hearted tenacity. Mostly you've taken
>> initiative to boot out the sleepers: kudos!
>>     Consider the ideas of associate members
>> and closing hours and a council in light of
>> the ideas of community collaboration and an
>> open venue.
>>     There has been disaffection of various
>> kinds ever since the build-out was somewhat
>> done and decorations up.
>>     Please take my response as food for
>> reflection, suggestions to balance the urge
>> to create policy.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 10:10 -0800, Al Sweigart wrote:
>> > Jim, could you give some examples of which NB members left because of
>> > rule makers rather than rule breakers? And can you say which rule
>> > makers and what rules they had gripes about? (I don't mind if you name
>> > me among them.)
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 9:46 AM, jim <jim at well.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >             Trying to find community is a matter of bonding
>> >         with others, yes? Why not come and find others who
>> >         share your values and interests and, with respect
>> >         to others, live and let live?
>> >             One big and largely ignored fact of NB is that
>> >         there are several communities, such as the morning,
>> >         mid-day, evening, and late evening people as well
>> >         as those that center about electronics, sewing,
>> >         software, cooking, spacebridge, and other interests.
>> >             It's unfortunate for some, who are harmless or
>> >         who offer real benefits to some others, that the
>> >         evening crowd has a much greater affect than others
>> >         regarding NB governance, and one of the founding
>> >         principles has been to recognize those who, for
>> >         whatever reasons, do not or can not attend
>> >         The Tuesday Night Meeting.
>> >
>> >             You've exaggerated the bad features and skipped
>> >         the good features of Noisebridge. A couple of good
>> >         features are
>> >         * the openness provides a great place to meet people
>> >           that one otherwise would never meet.
>> >         * cross-fertilization of interests and ideas among
>> >           various interest groups.
>> >
>> >             Those who simply "hack" and avoid the fray are
>> >         affected by the decisions of those who kick up the
>> >         fray: e.g. associate members and closing hours among
>> >         other tho't crimes.
>> >             The attempts to impose rules to govern mostly
>> >         * mask individuals' behaviors (people can blind
>> >           themselves to reality with the comfort that there
>> >           are rules)
>> >         * and, it seems to me having watched NB from its
>> >           inception, like medicines' side effects, rules
>> >           generally are not worth the enforcement efforts.
>> >
>> >             It's frustrating to put up with the bad sides of
>> >         any community, but rules usually do not address many
>> >         aspects of reality that drive behavior; patience is
>> >         a tough road.
>> >             There have been individual, do-ocratic efforts to
>> >         address theft, sleeping, drug use, and other problems
>> >         that were successful and did not employ rules.
>> >
>> >             Most of the people I learned to love have left.
>> >         I guess that's partly a matter of natural attrition,
>> >         but I know for a fact that to some degree people have
>> >         abandoned NB because of the rule makers rather than
>> >         the rule breakers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >         On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 19:41 -0800, Madelynn Martiniere wrote:
>> >         > Trying to find community is a thought crime? My bad, I
>> >         didn't realize
>> >         > the opinion of people who care about the future of the space
>> >         were so
>> >         > criminal.
>> >         >
>> >         > Considering this statement in your previous email:
>> >         > And let's be honest, Noisebridge in the last two years (or
>> >         even from the
>> >         > beginning) hasn't been the best establishment to go flaunt
>> >         around saying
>> >         > you're a member of. It's sort of like telling all your
>> >         friends you're a
>> >         > paying member of the festering techno trash dump and care
>> >         home for the
>> >         > socially dongz, while mice and rats run around inside your
>> >         sports blazer.
>> >         >
>> >         > Are you saying that it's not worth fixing because it's so
>> >         messed up?
>> >         > Because if so, then you're in no position to tell other
>> >         people not to
>> >         > try. If you're that sick and tired of hearing other people
>> >         try to fix
>> >         > a broken system, then I would suggest the alternative of
>> >         just not
>> >         > participating in any discussion about the space. Just hack
>> >         some
>> >         > things, and leave the rest of us to find productive
>> >         solutions.
>> >         >
>> >         > Cheers,
>> >         > Madelynn
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         > >
>> >
>> >         > > Rubin Abdi
>> >         > > December 18, 2013 6:37 PM
>> >         > > I'm getting sick and tired of people thinking they can fix
>> >         > > Noisebridge.
>> >         > > How can we put an end to this issue?
>> >         > >
>> >         > >
>> >         > > _______________________________________________
>> >         > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> >         > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >         > >
>> >         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> >         > >
>> >         >
>> >         > --
>> >         > Madelynn Martiniere
>> >         > Community Engineer. Entrepreneur. Geek.
>> >         >
>> >         > LinkedIn | Twitter | Email
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         >
>> >         > _______________________________________________
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>> >         > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> >         >
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>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> >
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