[Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals

jim jim at well.com
Sat Nov 16 05:40:53 UTC 2013


JS: my replies interspersed below: 

On Fri, 2013-11-15 at 18:01 -0800, Hannah Grimm wrote:
> Jim: what the fuck?
> 
> 
> I would like you to pause and think on a few things for a moment.
JS: okay 
>   First, if I am in a position where I am being harassed, confronting
> my harasser is not always a safe thing for me to do.
JS: right! (and obvious, yes?) 

>   Throwing a punch might get me stabbed.  Hell, telling someone to
> stop catcalling at me might get me stabbed. 
JS: true. low likelihood but high damage. Please 
note that I did not recommend throwing punches. 

>  Second, I'd like to point out that while Noisebridge is pretty bad at
> throwing out harassers (see Danny's comments above), it's great about
> kicking out people who have thrown punches.  Fighting back is more
> likely to get me kicked out of the space than the person who harassed
> me.  
JS: interesting. I don't know the history, but 
I'm taking your word for it; it certainly seems 
plausible. Good point. 

> If you claim that it's my responsibility to be able to defend myself,
> then the only responsible course of action is for me to only go to
> places that are safe...and that functionally means not coming to NB.
JS: no, I did not make such a claim. What I 
wrote was that I'll eagerly defend those who 
try to defend themselves, and admiringly, too. 
I cannot figure out what is your responsibility, 
and that goes to formal community rules and 
policies: I believe that the community jointly 
and severally cannot properly ascertain what 
might be one's responsibilities, and I see 
merit in keeping the definition at bay. 

> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 5:17 PM, Frantisek Apfelbeck
> <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>         "The members only policy has broken my heart and I've been
>         struggling with a sense of frustration ..."
>         
>         >>> Thank you for the wording, that is exactly how I felt
>         about this but it was hard to express it correctly.
>         
>         >>> I hope that the place will open again to the public in a
>         ways of making sure it is again an inviting to both hackers
>         and supportive crowd (as someone nicely put it few emails
>         back). 
>         
>         >>> I'm going to propose a suggestion to a new threat because
>         one thing which I think Jake was/is right is that there were
>         not really pronounced alternatives or push to implement them
>         and without a special effort things may be too challenging for
>         increased number of people who are physically around
>         Noisebridge these days, it looks like that there is a need to
>         change the atmosphere - not to the old days I think, you do
>         not "step in the same river" at Noisebridge but something what
>         is closer to the ideas on which or from which Noisebridge
>         started to grow and did and hopefully will again flourish.
>         
>         >>> Sincerely,
>         
>         >>> FAA
>         
>         >>> PS It may take me day or so, I want to make a wiki page on
>         it to do it right.
>         
>         
>         
>         biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>         
>         
>         
>         http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>         
>         
>         
>         "There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas
>         Karamchand Gandhi
>         
>         
>         
>         On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:19 AM, Darius Garza
>         <313kid at gmail.com> wrote:
>         
>         > I strongly encourage anyone with a sense of WTF to come to a
>         meeting and
>         > resurrect Leif's proposal to revoke all member only
>         consenssies. Two folks
>         > two meetings prior did just this but their proposal was
>         blocked. Something
>         > similar but different could be brought back at some point. 
>         
>         
>         >I also strongly encourage people to do this, and to perhaps
>         suggest alternate
>         >ideas which could achieve some of the well-meaning goals of
>         the misguided
>         >selectively-enforced-members-only policy...
>         
>         
>         The members only policy has broken my heart and I've been
>         struggling with a sense of frustration and hopelessness about
>         changing things. 
>         
>         
>         I'm not a member, nor an "associate member" but I will be
>         present at the next meeting to support Leif's proposal to
>         revoke the member's only policy that has stripped us of the
>         culture that I once loved. 
>         
>         
>         d.
>         
>         
>         On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Adrian Chadd
>         <adrian.chadd at gmail.com> wrote:
>                 On 15 November 2013 11:43, Leif Ryge
>                 <leif at synthesize.us> wrote:
>                 
>                 > If the members of Noisebridge insist on making
>                 policies I implore them to make
>                 > policies which are more MAY and SHOULD than MUST and
>                 SHALL.
>                 
>                 
>                 I've implemented internet protocols like this. It
>                 turns out people can
>                 and do ignore MAY/SHOULD when it suits them / when
>                 they're lazy.
>                 
>                 That only works when everyone involved are actively
>                 working to better
>                 the community as a whole. It doesn't work if everyone
>                 is acting in
>                 (mostly non-enlightened) self-interest. Principles,
>                 whilst admirable,
>                 need to be backed up with constant work. I see lots of
>                 principles..
>                 then I saw a dirty kitchen, people being abusive at
>                 meetings and
>                 people feeling unsafe in the space.
>                 
>                 It turns out ideals and principles aren't enough.
>                 
>                 
>                 
>                 
>                 -adrian
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>         
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