[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals

jim jim at well.com
Mon Nov 18 21:26:15 UTC 2013


    Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her. 
I stand by my claim that she seems to have no 
idea what I've said, and because of my feeling 
I believe there is no point for me to engage 
discussion. It seems to me she is not open to 
my wrong thoughts or my right ones. 

   As to that I replied to her privately, I 
prefaced my reply explaining that I did not 
want to burden the list: my wish to terminate 
discussion with her had no bearing on the 
other discussions in the thread. 



On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this thread. He sent it
> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl below.
> 
> > It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said. This is my last
> reply to you.
> 
> I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why my ideas are
> so different than his, why his very words were so wildly
> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired me for work,
> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a reluctant part of a
> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And Respecting Boundaries, I
> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.
> 
> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being misunderstood, when
> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think he is
> conflating his intention with his language and with his impact. They
> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him writing that he
> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his writing that he
> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what he is writing.
> 
> I think that many people have a cognitive block around accepting that
> the impact of their words or actions was very different than intended,
> or that their stated intention is often directly contravened by their
> words and actions.
> 
> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to change, there is no
> real way to engage with people who have a problem with your behavior.
> 
> R.
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals
> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
> Cc: 
> 
> >
> >
> > (replying personally so's not to burden
> > the list)
> >
> > It seems to me that you have no idea of what
> > I've said. This is my last reply to you.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> > > Responses Inline. God save us all.
> > >
> > > On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are so many problems with what you
> > > > > have written that I honestly believe you need to hire someone
> to
> > > help
> > > > > you grok what the fuck.
> > >
> > > I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking professional
> help
> > > on this matter.
> > >
> > > > strong community. My view is that people have run
> > > > to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.
> > >
> > > Have you thought to try, instead of defending your opinions, to
> query
> > > & seek to understand why people have felt that it is best to act
> this
> > > way?
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of
> technically
> > > > > engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over backwards to
> teach
> > > me
> > > > > how to work in hardware, with zero social expectations or
> > > assholery.
> > > > JS: me, too.
> > > >
> > > > > That place is gone.
> > > > JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
> > > > people still at noisebridge.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the experiences I have
> had
> > > at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly different than
> the
> > > previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this point of view
> you
> > > were to examine it and seek to understand why someone might hold
> it,
> > > you would be able to become less confused about why people are
> > > FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED OR
> ASSAULTED.
> > >
> > > > > Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the old hands
> > > present
> > > > > think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
> > > > JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
> > > >
> > > > > and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in against
> reform
> > > > > measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT without
> > > constructive
> > > > > input, is no place I want to support.
> > > > JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
> > > > collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
> > > > support; I think having policies is a dangerous
> > > > practice, partly because the fact of the policy
> > > > substitutes for understanding and action
> > > > appropriate to situations, partly because the
> > > > policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
> > > > substitute for one's own action and one's own
> > > > sense of self-worth.
> > >
> > > Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to SECURE
> THEIR
> > > PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building the kind of
> > > understanding you say should be used instead of policies... then
> > > perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to establish
> > > policies.
> > >
> > > R.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > R.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >         On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
> > > <jim at systemateka.com>
> > > > >         wrote:
> > > > >                     As to females being harassed, for cases of
> > > > >                 crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
> > > > >                 turning to the community for support; I would
> > > > >                 eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
> > > > >                 slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get
> some
> > > > >                 friends and return to verbally educate the
> > > > >                 offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive
> one's
> > > > >                 self as a victim and turn to a community for
> > > > >                 support for what is an individual incident.
> > > > >
> > > > >         Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
> > > > >
> > > > >         Time out - did you really just say that women who get
> > > groped
> > > > >         ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should not ask
> the
> > > > >         community to help them out? And you believe that it's
> > > > >         disempowering somehow??
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         And that people should just punch people or deal with
> it
> > > on
> > > > >         their own? Is this really what you're suggesting?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >                     There will be no way fully to suppress
> such
> > > > >                 actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
> > > > >                 personages, policies and rules and committee
> > > > >                 resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the
> actions of
> > > > >         "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let them back
> in
> > > > >         Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse for their
> > > > >         actions!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >                     Please ask yourself if you are prone to
> > > > >                 express yourself when you believe you have the
> > > > >                 "high ground" and can properly scold others.
> I.e.,
> > > > >                 are you living too much with anger?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of
> people
> > > in
> > > > >         the community at large who will help you out if
> someone is
> > > > >         creeping on you or worse, whether you are "taht
> females"
> > > or
> > > > >         just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what Jim says
> > > dissuade
> > > > >         you from reporting harassment or assault or pointing
> out
> > > > >         creepers! This is not an opinion everyone here
> carries.
> > > Please
> > > > >         don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're
> > > required
> > > > >         to punch people - it's a valid and rational response
> to
> > > remove
> > > > >         yourself from a dangerous situation and try to sort
> things
> > > out
> > > > >         later from a safe place rather than confront your
> > > > >         harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping on you,
> they
> > > are
> > > > >         pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too, so you are
> not
> > > > >         alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And
> as
> > > a
> > > > >         community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place
> for
> > > > >         everyone.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         Also, women really appreciate being called women and
> not
> > > > >         "females". Do you go around saying "the males" when
> > > referring
> > > > >         to men? Probably not.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         Angry forever,
> > > > >         Snail
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         --
> > > > >         -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> > > > >         ............. _ at y
> > > > >         http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >         _______________________________________________
> > > > >         Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > > > >         Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > > > >
> > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
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