[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals

jim jim at well.com
Mon Nov 18 23:28:40 UTC 2013


    My recollection is that Rachel Hospodar 
has referred to herself as Rachel 2.0. If 
I'm mistaken, I apologize if that's what 
she wants. 



On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 15:05 -0800, Rachel McConnell wrote:
> <headdesk/>
> 
> Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0, does NOT MEAN Rachel Hospodar 
> is Rachel 2.0!  She gets to decide herself what she wants to be called. 
>   Jeez.
> 
> On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:
> >
> >      Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her.
> > I stand by my claim that she seems to have no
> > idea what I've said, and because of my feeling
> > I believe there is no point for me to engage
> > discussion. It seems to me she is not open to
> > my wrong thoughts or my right ones.
> >
> >     As to that I replied to her privately, I
> > prefaced my reply explaining that I did not
> > want to burden the list: my wish to terminate
> > discussion with her had no bearing on the
> > other discussions in the thread.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> >> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this thread. He sent it
> >> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl below.
> >>
> >>> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said. This is my last
> >> reply to you.
> >>
> >> I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why my ideas are
> >> so different than his, why his very words were so wildly
> >> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired me for work,
> >> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a reluctant part of a
> >> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And Respecting Boundaries, I
> >> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.
> >>
> >> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being misunderstood, when
> >> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think he is
> >> conflating his intention with his language and with his impact. They
> >> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him writing that he
> >> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his writing that he
> >> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what he is writing.
> >>
> >> I think that many people have a cognitive block around accepting that
> >> the impact of their words or actions was very different than intended,
> >> or that their stated intention is often directly contravened by their
> >> words and actions.
> >>
> >> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to change, there is no
> >> real way to engage with people who have a problem with your behavior.
> >>
> >> R.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
> >> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity proposals
> >> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
> >> Cc:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (replying personally so's not to burden
> >>> the list)
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that you have no idea of what
> >>> I've said. This is my last reply to you.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> >>>> Responses Inline. God save us all.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <jim at systemateka.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are so many problems with what you
> >>>>>> have written that I honestly believe you need to hire someone
> >> to
> >>>> help
> >>>>>> you grok what the fuck.
> >>>>
> >>>> I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking professional
> >> help
> >>>> on this matter.
> >>>>
> >>>>> strong community. My view is that people have run
> >>>>> to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Have you thought to try, instead of defending your opinions, to
> >> query
> >>>> & seek to understand why people have felt that it is best to act
> >> this
> >>>> way?
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of
> >> technically
> >>>>>> engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over backwards to
> >> teach
> >>>> me
> >>>>>> how to work in hardware, with zero social expectations or
> >>>> assholery.
> >>>>> JS: me, too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> That place is gone.
> >>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
> >>>>> people still at noisebridge.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the experiences I have
> >> had
> >>>> at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly different than
> >> the
> >>>> previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this point of view
> >> you
> >>>> were to examine it and seek to understand why someone might hold
> >> it,
> >>>> you would be able to become less confused about why people are
> >>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED OR
> >> ASSAULTED.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the old hands
> >>>> present
> >>>>>> think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
> >>>>> JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in against
> >> reform
> >>>>>> measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT without
> >>>> constructive
> >>>>>> input, is no place I want to support.
> >>>>> JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
> >>>>> collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
> >>>>> support; I think having policies is a dangerous
> >>>>> practice, partly because the fact of the policy
> >>>>> substitutes for understanding and action
> >>>>> appropriate to situations, partly because the
> >>>>> policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
> >>>>> substitute for one's own action and one's own
> >>>>> sense of self-worth.
> >>>>
> >>>> Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to SECURE
> >> THEIR
> >>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building the kind of
> >>>> understanding you say should be used instead of policies... then
> >>>> perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to establish
> >>>> policies.
> >>>>
> >>>> R.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> R.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail" <snailtsunami at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>          On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
> >>>> <jim at systemateka.com>
> >>>>>>          wrote:
> >>>>>>                      As to females being harassed, for cases of
> >>>>>>                  crude coppings of feels, I dislike taht female
> >>>>>>                  turning to the community for support; I would
> >>>>>>                  eagerly defend any female who hauled off and
> >>>>>>                  slugged whoever copped a feel or to go get
> >> some
> >>>>>>                  friends and return to verbally educate the
> >>>>>>                  offender: it's dis-empowering to perceive
> >> one's
> >>>>>>                  self as a victim and turn to a community for
> >>>>>>                  support for what is an individual incident.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          Time out - did you really just say that women who get
> >>>> groped
> >>>>>>          ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should not ask
> >> the
> >>>>>>          community to help them out? And you believe that it's
> >>>>>>          disempowering somehow??
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          And that people should just punch people or deal with
> >> it
> >>>> on
> >>>>>>          their own? Is this really what you're suggesting?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>                      There will be no way fully to suppress
> >> such
> >>>>>>                  actions taken by horney and inconsiderate
> >>>>>>                  personages, policies and rules and committee
> >>>>>>                  resolutions aside (far, far aside, I hope).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress the
> >> actions of
> >>>>>>          "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let them back
> >> in
> >>>>>>          Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse for their
> >>>>>>          actions!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>                      Please ask yourself if you are prone to
> >>>>>>                  express yourself when you believe you have the
> >>>>>>                  "high ground" and can properly scold others.
> >> I.e.,
> >>>>>>                  are you living too much with anger?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are lots of
> >> people
> >>>> in
> >>>>>>          the community at large who will help you out if
> >> someone is
> >>>>>>          creeping on you or worse, whether you are "taht
> >> females"
> >>>> or
> >>>>>>          just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what Jim says
> >>>> dissuade
> >>>>>>          you from reporting harassment or assault or pointing
> >> out
> >>>>>>          creepers! This is not an opinion everyone here
> >> carries.
> >>>> Please
> >>>>>>          don't ever feel like it's your fault or that you're
> >>>> required
> >>>>>>          to punch people - it's a valid and rational response
> >> to
> >>>> remove
> >>>>>>          yourself from a dangerous situation and try to sort
> >> things
> >>>> out
> >>>>>>          later from a safe place rather than confront your
> >>>>>>          harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping on you,
> >> they
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>          pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too, so you are
> >> not
> >>>>>>          alone or stuck in some isolated personal incident! And
> >> as
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>          community we can try to make Noisebridge a safer place
> >> for
> >>>>>>          everyone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          Also, women really appreciate being called women and
> >> not
> >>>>>>          "females". Do you go around saying "the males" when
> >>>> referring
> >>>>>>          to men? Probably not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          Angry forever,
> >>>>>>          Snail
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          --
> >>>>>>          -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
> >>>>>>          ............. _ at y
> >>>>>>          http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>          _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>          Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >>>>>>          Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >>>>>>
> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >
> >
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