[Noisebridge-discuss] Fwd: Re: anti-anonymity proposals

jim jim at well.com
Tue Nov 19 18:37:37 UTC 2013



Certainly. I agree. 


On Tue, 2013-11-19 at 09:54 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> I'd rather that anyone who is going to be dismissive of my concerns
> call me The Rachel Who Shall Not Be Named, TRWSNBN for short, rather
> than a cozy little insider nickname. I am not part of your Noisebridge
> anymore, jim, and so it does not make sense for you to number me
> within its system.
> 
> On Nov 18, 2013 3:29 PM, "jim" <jim at well.com> wrote:
>         
>             My recollection is that Rachel Hospodar
>         has referred to herself as Rachel 2.0. If
>         I'm mistaken, I apologize if that's what
>         she wants.
>         
>         
>         
>         On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 15:05 -0800, Rachel McConnell wrote:
>         > <headdesk/>
>         >
>         > Jim, just because I call myself Rachel1.0, does NOT MEAN
>         Rachel Hospodar
>         > is Rachel 2.0!  She gets to decide herself what she wants to
>         be called.
>         >   Jeez.
>         >
>         > On 11/18/13 1:26 PM, jim wrote:
>         > >
>         > >      Rachel 2.0 is correct. I have dismissed her.
>         > > I stand by my claim that she seems to have no
>         > > idea what I've said, and because of my feeling
>         > > I believe there is no point for me to engage
>         > > discussion. It seems to me she is not open to
>         > > my wrong thoughts or my right ones.
>         > >
>         > >     As to that I replied to her privately, I
>         > > prefaced my reply explaining that I did not
>         > > want to burden the list: my wish to terminate
>         > > discussion with her had no bearing on the
>         > > other discussions in the thread.
>         > >
>         > >
>         > >
>         > > On Mon, 2013-11-18 at 12:56 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar
>         wrote:
>         > >> Here is an example of jim being dismissive on this
>         thread. He sent it
>         > >> to me privately and I was ignoring it. Full email incl
>         below.
>         > >>
>         > >>> It seems to me that you have no idea what I've said.
>         This is my last
>         > >> reply to you.
>         > >>
>         > >> I have done my best to read his emails and articulate why
>         my ideas are
>         > >> so different than his, why his very words were so wildly
>         > >> inappropriate. Given that Jim has previously hired me for
>         work,
>         > >> invited me to his house, and subsequently been a
>         reluctant part of a
>         > >> public discussion with me about Bad Touch And Respecting
>         Boundaries, I
>         > >> was perhaps expecting my viewpoint to be relevant.
>         > >>
>         > >> The problem i see is that jim believes he is being
>         misunderstood, when
>         > >> in fact he is often being understood very well. I think
>         he is
>         > >> conflating his intention with his language and with his
>         impact. They
>         > >> are three very separate things. I repeatedly see him
>         writing that he
>         > >> is being misunderstood, and repeatedly read in his
>         writing that he
>         > >> believes others are overreacting and ignoring what he is
>         writing.
>         > >>
>         > >> I think that many people have a cognitive block around
>         accepting that
>         > >> the impact of their words or actions was very different
>         than intended,
>         > >> or that their stated intention is often directly
>         contravened by their
>         > >> words and actions.
>         > >>
>         > >> Without the willingness to admit one's own need to
>         change, there is no
>         > >> real way to engage with people who have a problem with
>         your behavior.
>         > >>
>         > >> R.
>         > >>
>         > >>
>         > >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>         > >> From: "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
>         > >> Date: Nov 16, 2013 3:48 PM
>         > >> Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] anti-anonymity
>         proposals
>         > >> To: "rachel lyra hospodar" <rachelyra at gmail.com>
>         > >> Cc:
>         > >>
>         > >>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>> (replying personally so's not to burden
>         > >>> the list)
>         > >>>
>         > >>> It seems to me that you have no idea of what
>         > >>> I've said. This is my last reply to you.
>         > >>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>> On Sat, 2013-11-16 at 14:42 -0800, rachel lyra hospodar
>         wrote:
>         > >>>> Responses Inline. God save us all.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> On Nov 15, 2013 8:36 PM, "jim" <jim at systemateka.com>
>         wrote:
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>> There are so many problems with what you
>         > >>>>>> have written that I honestly believe you need to hire
>         someone
>         > >> to
>         > >>>> help
>         > >>>>>> you grok what the fuck.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> I continue to believe you would benefit from seeking
>         professional
>         > >> help
>         > >>>> on this matter.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>>> strong community. My view is that people have run
>         > >>>>> to the community prematurely, to their own detriment.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> Have you thought to try, instead of defending your
>         opinions, to
>         > >> query
>         > >>>> & seek to understand why people have felt that it is
>         best to act
>         > >> this
>         > >>>> way?
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>> I came to Noisebridge and found a huge community of
>         > >> technically
>         > >>>>>> engaged wonderful hacker friends who bent over
>         backwards to
>         > >> teach
>         > >>>> me
>         > >>>>>> how to work in hardware, with zero social
>         expectations or
>         > >>>> assholery.
>         > >>>>> JS: me, too.
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>> That place is gone.
>         > >>>>> JS: I'm not sure, there are lots of very fine
>         > >>>>> people still at noisebridge.
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> I AM quite sure, thankyouverymuch, because the
>         experiences I have
>         > >> had
>         > >>>> at Noisebridge over the last 2 years are so wildly
>         different than
>         > >> the
>         > >>>> previous two. Perhaps if instead of dismissing this
>         point of view
>         > >> you
>         > >>>> were to examine it and seek to understand why someone
>         might hold
>         > >> it,
>         > >>>> you would be able to become less confused about why
>         people are
>         > >>>> FREAKING THE FUCK OUT about things like BEING GRABBED
>         OR
>         > >> ASSAULTED.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>>>> Perhaps 2169 will continue but a community where the
>         old hands
>         > >>>> present
>         > >>>>>> think assault should be dealt with in isolation,
>         > >>>>> JS: assault should not be dealt with in isolation.
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>> and the old hands absent feel entitled to weigh in
>         against
>         > >> reform
>         > >>>>>> measures aimed at REDUCING INCIDENCES OF ASSAULT
>         without
>         > >>>> constructive
>         > >>>>>> input, is no place I want to support.
>         > >>>>> JS: I'm against formality in general; I'm for
>         > >>>>> collaboration, affection, acceptance, mutual
>         > >>>>> support; I think having policies is a dangerous
>         > >>>>> practice, partly because the fact of the policy
>         > >>>>> substitutes for understanding and action
>         > >>>>> appropriate to situations, partly because the
>         > >>>>> policy may, unfortunately, be seen as a
>         > >>>>> substitute for one's own action and one's own
>         > >>>>> sense of self-worth.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> Instead of undermining the efforts of people seeking to
>         SECURE
>         > >> THEIR
>         > >>>> PERSONAL SAFETY you could try to work towards building
>         the kind of
>         > >>>> understanding you say should be used instead of
>         policies... then
>         > >>>> perhaps there wouldn't be so many people seeking to
>         establish
>         > >>>> policies.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>> R.
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>> R.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013 2:29 PM, "Snail"
>         <snailtsunami at gmail.com>
>         > >> wrote:
>         > >>>>>>          On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:13 AM, jim
>         > >>>> <jim at systemateka.com>
>         > >>>>>>          wrote:
>         > >>>>>>                      As to females being harassed,
>         for cases of
>         > >>>>>>                  crude coppings of feels, I dislike
>         taht female
>         > >>>>>>                  turning to the community for
>         support; I would
>         > >>>>>>                  eagerly defend any female who hauled
>         off and
>         > >>>>>>                  slugged whoever copped a feel or to
>         go get
>         > >> some
>         > >>>>>>                  friends and return to verbally
>         educate the
>         > >>>>>>                  offender: it's dis-empowering to
>         perceive
>         > >> one's
>         > >>>>>>                  self as a victim and turn to a
>         community for
>         > >>>>>>                  support for what is an individual
>         incident.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          Whoa - whoa whoa whoa - whoaaaaa...
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          Time out - did you really just say that
>         women who get
>         > >>>> groped
>         > >>>>>>          ("cases of crude coppings of feels") should
>         not ask
>         > >> the
>         > >>>>>>          community to help them out? And you believe
>         that it's
>         > >>>>>>          disempowering somehow??
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          And that people should just punch people or
>         deal with
>         > >> it
>         > >>>> on
>         > >>>>>>          their own? Is this really what you're
>         suggesting?
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>                      There will be no way fully to
>         suppress
>         > >> such
>         > >>>>>>                  actions taken by horney and
>         inconsiderate
>         > >>>>>>                  personages, policies and rules and
>         committee
>         > >>>>>>                  resolutions aside (far, far aside, I
>         hope).
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          I can't even. Here's a good way to suppress
>         the
>         > >> actions of
>         > >>>>>>          "horney" or inconsiderate people: never let
>         them back
>         > >> in
>         > >>>>>>          Noisebridge because that's a terrible excuse
>         for their
>         > >>>>>>          actions!
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>                      Please ask yourself if you are
>         prone to
>         > >>>>>>                  express yourself when you believe
>         you have the
>         > >>>>>>                  "high ground" and can properly scold
>         others.
>         > >> I.e.,
>         > >>>>>>                  are you living too much with anger?
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          With the rage of a thousand burning stars.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          TO EVERYONE ELSE READING THIS - There are
>         lots of
>         > >> people
>         > >>>> in
>         > >>>>>>          the community at large who will help you out
>         if
>         > >> someone is
>         > >>>>>>          creeping on you or worse, whether you are
>         "taht
>         > >> females"
>         > >>>> or
>         > >>>>>>          just a plain ol' human being! Don't let what
>         Jim says
>         > >>>> dissuade
>         > >>>>>>          you from reporting harassment or assault or
>         pointing
>         > >> out
>         > >>>>>>          creepers! This is not an opinion everyone
>         here
>         > >> carries.
>         > >>>> Please
>         > >>>>>>          don't ever feel like it's your fault or that
>         you're
>         > >>>> required
>         > >>>>>>          to punch people - it's a valid and rational
>         response
>         > >> to
>         > >>>> remove
>         > >>>>>>          yourself from a dangerous situation and try
>         to sort
>         > >> things
>         > >>>> out
>         > >>>>>>          later from a safe place rather than confront
>         your
>         > >>>>>>          harasser/assaulter. If someone is creeping
>         on you,
>         > >> they
>         > >>>> are
>         > >>>>>>          pretty much always creeping on OTHERS, too,
>         so you are
>         > >> not
>         > >>>>>>          alone or stuck in some isolated personal
>         incident! And
>         > >> as
>         > >>>> a
>         > >>>>>>          community we can try to make Noisebridge a
>         safer place
>         > >> for
>         > >>>>>>          everyone.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          Also, women really appreciate being called
>         women and
>         > >> not
>         > >>>>>>          "females". Do you go around saying "the
>         males" when
>         > >>>> referring
>         > >>>>>>          to men? Probably not.
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          Angry forever,
>         > >>>>>>          Snail
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>          --
>         > >>>>>>          -Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
>         > >>>>>>          ............. _ at y
>         > >>>>>>          http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>>
>          _______________________________________________
>         > >>>>>>          Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>         > >>>>>>          Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>
>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>         > >>>>>>
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>>
>         > >>>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>>
>         > >>
>         > >>
>         > >> _______________________________________________
>         > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>         > >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>         > >>
>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>         > >
>         > >
>         > > _______________________________________________
>         > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>         > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>         > >
>         https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>         > >
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>         
>         
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