[Noisebridge-discuss] [drama] disagreement between jake and gtwog about mailinglist etiquette

GtwoG PublicOhOne g2g-public01 at att.net
Tue Oct 15 10:43:17 UTC 2013


Yo Jake-

Start a new topic: sure, let's do.  The discussion proceeded from points
you made at each step, so you could have done so as well.

People summarize each others' points frequently in online dialogs. 
Often I do it to check with someone to be sure I understand what they're
saying.  Tangents happen, they're not the end of the world.  Sometimes
particulars lead to generalizations, and sometimes it works the other
way 'round. 

What I personally find highly annoying, that occurs on many lists, is
when people use broadcast email to carry on a conversation of one-liners
that have little to no content.  But I don't go telling people to stop
wasting my time every time I click an email and it just contains
something like "LOL" or "Yeah, me too" plus a whole bunch of quoted and
re-quoted dialog. 

People can usually tell what they do and don't want to read by skimming
a few lines.  The time and effort is minimal.  Respect for readers
includes respecting their intelligence by not treating them like they're
helpless. 

So if you want to continue the discussion about "free, paid, and sweat
equity" and so on, let's do. 

Even better, pick up the UXA item as a thread or a topic on its own,
because that's an example that deserves to be studied by anyone who
cares about building viable alternatives. 

-G.


=====


On 13-10-15-Tue 3:09 AM, Jake wrote:
> i'm just saying, i couldn't tell what you were trying to say in the
> context of the discussion described by the topic, and i thought only
> you were qualified to summarize the point you were trying to make.
>
> you should respect the right of people on this list to decide what
> they want to read, by either sticking to the subjct line or providing
> advanced notice that you're going on a huge tangent.  Alternatively
> you are welcome to start a new thread and set the subject line
> accordingly.
>
> just because people are capable of reading and comprehending doesn't
> mean they want to read and try to comprehend your long essay about
> whatever you feel like expressing, under the subject line "proposal to
> change membership rules at noisebridge" or whatever it was.
>
> respect peoples right to decide what to spend time reading.
>
> -jake
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>
>>
>> Yo Jake-
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't pander to the culture of soundbites and zero
>> attention span, which are creations of the Reagan and Bush Jr. regimes
>> respectively.
>>
>> Everyone here knows how to scroll down a page and skim, and choose to
>> read or not read something.  Calling for a "TL/DR" warning is an insult
>> to peoples' intelligence.  The whole idea of "TL/DR" is an advertisement
>> for prideful ignorance.
>>
>> If you expect to replace capitalism with something other than a cave-man
>> existence where people merely grunt at each other, you should be
>> encouraging thoughtful communication, rather than discouraging it.
>>
>> And if you disagree with what I have to say, argue the arguement rather
>> than digressing to meta and promoting willful ignorance.  Otherwise your
>> claims of dedication to cause, are instead cause for skepticism.
>>
>> Really: how do you expect to change the culture, if you promote an
>> attitude of "don't read"...?  The contradiction is glaring.
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13-10-15-Tue 2:01 AM, Jake wrote:
>>> Dear GtwoG,
>>>
>>> When writing a long post to a public list, it is helpful to precede
>>> your message with a summary in the following form:
>>>
>>> tl;dr [punchline and final meaning of your entire long post]
>>>
>>> thank you,
>>> -jake
>>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jake-
>>>>
>>>> Post-capitalism? Realistically we're in the early stages of a
>>>> social-Darwinist dystopia that worsens as population/consumption
>>>> overshoot of global resources continues, and ecological impacts
>>>> multiply. Think "supply and demand applied to the value of human
>>>> lives,"
>>>> and don't blame the messenger. Eventually the level of chronic misery
>>>> hits a breaking point, but then which way does it go?
>>>>
>>>> In Europe what we see, right now, as the result of the level of misery
>>>> produced by the 2008 depression, is the emergence of fascist parties,
>>>> some with overt Nazi symbolism, often with seats in national
>>>> parliaments. In the US, the rabid right wing is still strong enough to
>>>> shut down women's reproductive rights, shut down government, and
>>>> dictate
>>>> policy. How do you expect to get from _that_ to post-capitalism?
>>>>
>>>> Excellence is about _doing_, not _being_, otherwise charisma becomes a
>>>> substitute for action. Clearly, in-kind efforts such as teaching,
>>>> cleaning, making stuff that's of value to others, etc., count as
>>>> excellence. If someone is doing a hefty share of work and believes
>>>> that
>>>> their work should substitute for payment, great. But the history of
>>>> collectives of all kinds shows clearly that there is a high risk of
>>>> exploitation by people who do neither, and just go along for the ride:
>>>> this is one of the leading causes of failure of collectives.
>>>>
>>>> Re. "between jobs": That's a euphemism promoted by the powers-that-be
>>>> (notice that phrase: "the powers" only have to _be_, they don't
>>>> have to
>>>> _do_). Call a shovel a shovel: unemployed, under-employed, economic
>>>> survivalism, near-poverty, poverty, homelessness, down-and-out, flat
>>>> broke, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Re. directing energy toward bringing down the fatcats on Wall Street:
>>>> And let's not forget the fatcats in Silicon Valley who built the
>>>> surveillance empire that NSA uses as its source material. In the end,
>>>> the way to take down the fatcats is to starve them for money and data
>>>> (starting with easy targets such as boycotting Google and the bankster
>>>> banks) and to build alternative infrastructure (peoples' economic
>>>> empowerment).
>>>>
>>>> Hackerspaces are part of the alternative infrastructure, along with
>>>> cooperatives and collectives of all kinds, credit unions and local
>>>> currencies, and anything else that enables people to live their lives
>>>> without vampires clinging to their back and sucking their life-blood.
>>>>
>>>> The big breakthrough is the liberation of land itself. When single
>>>> parents can raise their kids without fear for the roof over their
>>>> heads
>>>> and the food on their plates, without having to suck up to a boss or
>>>> "curate" their online presence, that will be real freedom. Economic
>>>> survivalism plus rhetoric is not that. We have to be realistic
>>>> about the
>>>> amount of hard work and struggle it's going to take to get there.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, here's an example of something that worked. The "UXA" was a
>>>> successful example of post-capitalism in the Bay Area during the 1930s
>>>> depression:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.countercurrents.org/curl030510.htm
>>>>
>>>> "At the height of the Great Depression, a group of unemployed Oakland
>>>> workers decided to take matters into their own hands. The system
>>>> wasn’t
>>>> working, so they set up their own system. Money was nearly
>>>> worthless, so
>>>> they decided to live by barter. They called themselves the Unemployed
>>>> Exchange Association and they soon went on to write a remarkable
>>>> chapter
>>>> in American economic history. This is their story...."
>>>>
>>>> -G.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =====
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 13-10-14-Mon 1:19 PM, Jake wrote:
>>>>> G,
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe we are entering a period of post-capitalism in the hacker
>>>>> community. This is a condition that is not new to humanity by any
>>>>> means, having been practiced by clans and villages and communities
>>>>> since before the epoch. But it is the direction we're moving and we
>>>>> should be.
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to disconnect the act of payment from the act of being an
>>>>> excellent member. The two are not the same. Plenty of people have
>>>>> given money to noisebridge without having the time to come to the
>>>>> space and help maintain it. Even more people come to noisebridge and
>>>>> make it an excellent hackerspace, but are between jobs or without the
>>>>> ability to pay.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not bothered at all by people who do have the ability to pay and
>>>>> choose not to. If you are bothered by that i suggest you instead
>>>>> direct your energy toward the tea party and fatcats on wall street,
>>>>> who have a lot more to give and resist helping to fund the great
>>>>> society that made their success possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> -jake
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2013, GtwoG PublicOhOne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In your proposal you said "ability or willingness" to pay.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These aren't the same thing. Inability to pay = "can't," and
>>>>>> unwillingness = "can but won't."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think of people whose attitude is, "I can afford to pay
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I won't"...?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is "can but won't" fair to people who honestly can't afford to pay,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> to people who over-pay in order to cover costs for those who can't
>>>>>> afford to pay?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems to me that "can but won't" is an exploitative attitude, that
>>>>>> doesn't deserve to be supported, much less written into the
>>>>>> membership
>>>>>> agreement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -G.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =====
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13-10-13-Sun 5:38 PM, Jake wrote:
>>>>>>> currently noisebridge is used by 99% non-Members, 1% Members.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> currently, 99% of noisebridge Members do not use noisebridge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> currently, Membership at noisebridge requires ongoing cash flow
>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>> noisebridge either by tradition or rules, it is not clear which.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think this is not working out. Noisebridge's rent gets paid
>>>>>>> but the
>>>>>>> people who come to noisebridge have zero motivation to become a
>>>>>>> member, and so they don't bother. We should be adding several new
>>>>>>> members weekly.
>>>>>>> Membership at Noisebridge should be a valuable tool to encourage
>>>>>>> cooperation and a sense of belonging, while reinforcing
>>>>>>> accountability
>>>>>>> and support between users of the space (including Members and
>>>>>>> Guests)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no reason for membership to be tied to giving money to
>>>>>>> noisebridge. If someone is excellent and wants to be a part of
>>>>>>> noisebridge, and no Member blocks them, they should be allowed to
>>>>>>> join. Members should remain in good standing regardless of their
>>>>>>> financial contributions as long as they are remaining excellent and
>>>>>>> accountable for their actions, and those of their guests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I propose that Noisebridge change the rules of Membership to do
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> with the cash flow requirement, and to expressly do away with the
>>>>>>> informal and inappropriate "bribe", which defeats the purpose of
>>>>>>> asking the potential member to step out while their membership is
>>>>>>> consensed upon _or_not_.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We agreed last week to close noisebridge to non-Members from
>>>>>>> 23:00 to
>>>>>>> 10:00 every day, with the exception of guests of Members and
>>>>>>> Members-in-Application who have two signatures. We will be able to
>>>>>>> take advantage of this policy by encouraging more SUPPORTERS of
>>>>>>> noisebridge to become Members. We can do this by removing the
>>>>>>> payment
>>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If people want to support Noisebridge with money, they should feel
>>>>>>> free to do so, whether they are Members or not. If people want to
>>>>>>> support Noisebridge with their presence, excellence, and
>>>>>>> accountability to one another, they should feel free to do so,
>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> they are in a position to supply cash or not. I think this
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>> obvious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I ask that absentee Members, who have been unable or unmotivated to
>>>>>>> offer their support in the form of their presence, excellence, and
>>>>>>> accountability, please stand aside from this proposal if they have
>>>>>>> objections (or offer friendly amendments in the spirit of problem
>>>>>>> solving). People who are not regularly using the space should not
>>>>>>> stand in the way of improvements to be made by those who do use and
>>>>>>> contribute to the space regularly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The proposal should be worded as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Membership to Noisebridge should no longer be dependant on a
>>>>>>> person's
>>>>>>> ability or willingness to pay money to noisebridge, or to bring
>>>>>>> food
>>>>>>> or beer to a meeting, but only on their ability to acquire
>>>>>>> sponsorship
>>>>>>> signatures and be consensed upon at a meeting, after leaving the
>>>>>>> meeting to give opportunity for any objections to be discussed
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>> they return.
>>>>>>> Members will thus enter and remain in good standing without
>>>>>>> regard to
>>>>>>> any financial contributions they do or do not make in that time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -jake
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>



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