[Noisebridge-discuss] Pantry Storage and Clean Up

Jean-Jacques Zenger jeanjacqueszee at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 5 03:47:50 UTC 2014


I have heard about storage concerns in the Kitchen Pantry. I will clear it out as I am familiar with many of the items. I store toilet paper in there and have volunteered to purchase it as needed and keep the bathrooms supplied. I store laundry detergent and dirty towels in there. I have also been volunteering to find good, used towels, launder them and change them in the bathrooms and kitchen when they become dirty. I have a few boxes of projects stored there that I was planning to remove soon. I will remove them tonight (Fri.)  I have recently heard about Noisebridge guidelines that we are not to store projects anywhere but on the Member Shelves. This I will now do. There is other miscellaneous junk in the pantry like clothes, a blanket, etc. that may have been Harvey leftovers or other sources. I will recycle or throw these away. Recent new items are a lot of electrical wiring supplies that were transferred from the Server Room. I  will move them to
 the machine shop. Other contents include equipment and supplies for making beer and kombucha tea. I will consolidate these. I spoke with J.C. recently about the washing machine. He has put in some time on it and is of the opinion that it is broken beyond repair. I am a professional handyman (I repaired the leaky toilet) and would like to check it out unless others know that it is resistant to repair. I plan on working on the pantry clean out Fri. night and Saturday. I would hope this is okay with Ron and everyone.

Jean-Jacques


On Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:42 PM, "noisebridge-discuss-request at lists.noisebridge.net" <noisebridge-discuss-request at lists.noisebridge.net> wrote:
 
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Today's Topics:

   1. Having a discussion about the kitchen (James Sundquist)
   2. Re: better tech for making decisions (Naomi Most)
   3. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Praveen Sinha)
   4. people who teach at nb: #classes channel on    slack (Mike Schachter)
   5. Re: people who teach at nb: #classes channel    on slack (Naomi Most)
   6. Re: better tech for making decisions (Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza)
   7. Re: better tech for making decisions (Naomi Most)
   8. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Hannah Grimm)
   9. Re: better tech for making decisions (Naomi Most)
  10. Re: Leaving the Bay Area;    visiting east coast, EU, UK (Sai)
  11. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Jeffrey Carl Faden)
  12. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Naomi Most)
  13. Re: Enforcing the rules by going over your    heads (Al Sweigart)
  14. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Naomi Gmail)
  15. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Praveen Sinha)
  16. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Ceren Ercen)
  17. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Will Sargent)
  18. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Praveen Sinha)
  19. Re: experimental use of Slack for discussions (consensus and
      otherwise) (Casey Callendrello)
  20. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (daravinne)
  21. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Jeffrey Carl Faden)
  22. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Ronald Cotoni)
  23. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Norman Bradley)
  24. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Adrian Chadd)
  25. Crypto currency commoditizing computer    hardware? (Dan Cote)
  26. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Jeffrey Carl Faden)
  27. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Oren Beck)
  28. Re: Cooking in the space, update (Jeffrey Carl Faden)
  29. Re: [Noisebridge-disacuss] Cooking in the    space, update
      (Ceren Ercen)
  30. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (daravinne)
  31. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Jeffrey Carl Faden)
  32. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Ceren Ercen)
  33. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen
      (al.sweigart at hushmail.com)
  34. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Naomi Most)
  35. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Ronald Cotoni)
  36. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Snail)
  37. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (immonad)
  38. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Liz Henry)
  39. Re: Having a discussion about the kitchen (Yardena Cohen)
  40. Throwing this out tomorrow (Casey Callendrello)

Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have effective communication about the kitchen.

A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by asking questions rather than talking over others.

1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.

2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.


3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community building should be the goal when people are in conflict.


4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3 Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person." 
You're right, the "secure" part wasn't mentioned.  I added that in.

The reason I thought to add that in was because I felt it was a value
most at Noisebridge would share.  But you're right that it doesn't
accurately represent the conversation.

I agree with almost everything else you've written, and I'm the
biggest proponent of people meeting in person in the space whenever
possible.  I'm just worried about those times when that's not
possible.

Maybe I shouldn't worry so much? Maybe when there are Working Groups,
the meetings will be less burdened, and therefore more productive?

But one thing I do want to try is having more reasoned discussions
ahead of the meetings.  Technology helps a lot with that, since I have
no guarantees of when I or anyone else will happen to be in the space
AND want to talk rather than hack.

--Naomi, getting back to hacking!



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza
<xavieram at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was present for this discussion, but don't concur with one aspect of
> Naomi's summation of it:
>
>
> --
> So rather than talk about a new voting method, which would entail the
> same above problems, we talked about ways to get greater participation
> before a meeting, where all interested parties could participate in
> the discussion topics that interest them.  Such a technology would
> have the following features:
>
> * Internal to Noisebridge (so, NOT the nb-discuss list).
>
> * Secure (reasonably protected from surveillance by unwanted parties)
> --
>
> It was mentioned that we thought people should be free to use whatever
> uniquely identifiable and verifiable as a member identifier that they might
> like.
>
> However, keeping those messages secure from surveillance wasn't something I
> recall being brought up, though I might not have heard it if it was.
>
> What I do recall, however, was mention of the importance of transparency. If
> there is a NB-members list for the purpose of examining proposals, I think
> it is important that it be viewable by anybody as a matter of record. This
> is particularly important given that not everybody is going to want to sign
> up for the list, but I don't believe they should be deprived access to
> reviewing the consensus process.
>
>
> Regarding suggestions to make the core decision-making process resident on
> some website or other electronic medium - I would caution against that. We
> all love technology, but Noisebridge is a community of people based around a
> physical location. There simply is no substitute for working things out in
> person, with the people involved, in the space you are all connected to.
>
>
> -Xavier
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost



THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING

Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com> wrote:

Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have effective communication about the kitchen.
>
>A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by asking questions rather than talking over others.
>
>1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>
>2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>
>
>
>3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>
>
>4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3 Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person." 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

I'm trying out an installation of slack that Naomi put together (thanks!). I created a channel called #classes for people who teach classes, so we can organize and have better representation. Could anyone who teaches classes and wants to try it out email Naomi, get an invite for slack, and share opinions on the channel?

 mike
Very cool!  Yes, please get on there, let's see if this model works.
Standing by, don't be shy.

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Mike Schachter <cubicgoats at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying out an installation of slack that Naomi put together (thanks!). I
> created a channel called #classes for people who teach classes, so we can
> organize and have better representation. Could anyone who teaches classes
> and wants to try it out email Naomi, get an invite for slack, and share
> opinions on the channel?
>
>  mike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost








On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:

You're right, the "secure" part wasn't mentioned.  I added that in.
>
>The reason I thought to add that in was because I felt it was a value
>most at Noisebridge would share.  But you're right that it doesn't
>accurately represent the conversation.
>


Oh, absolutely. Security is important, I just don't see how in this case it's compatible with the other values of openness and inclusiveness in decision-making. 

 
I agree with almost everything else you've written, and I'm the
>biggest proponent of people meeting in person in the space whenever
>possible.  I'm just worried about those times when that's not
>possible.
>

I understand that, and I know that reasonable cases do come up where somebody with a strong position on the matter simply cannot make it. While the Proxy system clearly has flaws, I'm unsure how to change that without creating the opportunity for the very same trolls on the discuss list being able to just electronically block all proposals.

That's why I'm such a strong proponent for in person democracy. People will happily spew hate to a screen and watch systems collapse. However, people are much less willing to make a trip in person, be hated in person and then watch the consequences of their actions destroy the space they are in. Also, technological systems are easy to subvert. What would happen when somebody claims their "I block!" button didn't work, and so the last proposal was invalid?
 
Maybe I shouldn't worry so much? Maybe when there are Working Groups,
>the meetings will be less burdened, and therefore more productive?
>

I'm not familiar with this working group thing?
 
But one thing I do want to try is having more reasoned discussions
>ahead of the meetings.  Technology helps a lot with that, since I have
>no guarantees of when I or anyone else will happen to be in the space
>AND want to talk rather than hack.
>

I concur absolutely! 

 -XavierWell, I am trying to put faith in the community to be more like a
community and less like an "Us versus Them" situation.

I don't want to design solutions predicated on the existing problems.
I want to design solutions that assume the best about the potential of
the humans of Noisebridge while keeping the lessons of the past in
mind.

To put it metaphorically:

If you're looking for a good place to sit, don't add lumbar support to
a table.  Design a chair.

--Naomi


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza
<xavieram at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You're right, the "secure" part wasn't mentioned.  I added that in.
>>
>> The reason I thought to add that in was because I felt it was a value
>> most at Noisebridge would share.  But you're right that it doesn't
>> accurately represent the conversation.
>
>
>
> Oh, absolutely. Security is important, I just don't see how in this case
> it's compatible with the other values of openness and inclusiveness in
> decision-making.
>
>
>>
>> I agree with almost everything else you've written, and I'm the
>> biggest proponent of people meeting in person in the space whenever
>> possible.  I'm just worried about those times when that's not
>> possible.
>
>
> I understand that, and I know that reasonable cases do come up where
> somebody with a strong position on the matter simply cannot make it. While
> the Proxy system clearly has flaws, I'm unsure how to change that without
> creating the opportunity for the very same trolls on the discuss list being
> able to just electronically block all proposals.
>
> That's why I'm such a strong proponent for in person democracy. People will
> happily spew hate to a screen and watch systems collapse. However, people
> are much less willing to make a trip in person, be hated in person and then
> watch the consequences of their actions destroy the space they are in. Also,
> technological systems are easy to subvert. What would happen when somebody
> claims their "I block!" button didn't work, and so the last proposal was
> invalid?
>
>>
>> Maybe I shouldn't worry so much? Maybe when there are Working Groups,
>> the meetings will be less burdened, and therefore more productive?
>
>
> I'm not familiar with this working group thing?
>
>>
>> But one thing I do want to try is having more reasoned discussions
>> ahead of the meetings.  Technology helps a lot with that, since I have
>> no guarantees of when I or anyone else will happen to be in the space
>> AND want to talk rather than hack.
>
>
> I concur absolutely!
>
>  -Xavier



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost



"2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."

Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>
>
>Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have effective communication about the kitchen.
>>
>>A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>
>>1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>
>>2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>>3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>
>>
>>4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3 Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person." 
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
(tacking on something I should have said):

So, points definitely taken about the potential for abuse of
technology.  I would just like to see those problems actually happen
before being scared away by the possibility of them.

--Naomi


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I am trying to put faith in the community to be more like a
> community and less like an "Us versus Them" situation.
>
> I don't want to design solutions predicated on the existing problems.
> I want to design solutions that assume the best about the potential of
> the humans of Noisebridge while keeping the lessons of the past in
> mind.
>
> To put it metaphorically:
>
> If you're looking for a good place to sit, don't add lumbar support to
> a table.  Design a chair.
>
> --Naomi
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Xavier Aubuchon-Mendoza
> <xavieram at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You're right, the "secure" part wasn't mentioned.  I added that in.
>>>
>>> The reason I thought to add that in was because I felt it was a value
>>> most at Noisebridge would share.  But you're right that it doesn't
>>> accurately represent the conversation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, absolutely. Security is important, I just don't see how in this case
>> it's compatible with the other values of openness and inclusiveness in
>> decision-making.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I agree with almost everything else you've written, and I'm the
>>> biggest proponent of people meeting in person in the space whenever
>>> possible.  I'm just worried about those times when that's not
>>> possible.
>>
>>
>> I understand that, and I know that reasonable cases do come up where
>> somebody with a strong position on the matter simply cannot make it. While
>> the Proxy system clearly has flaws, I'm unsure how to change that without
>> creating the opportunity for the very same trolls on the discuss list being
>> able to just electronically block all proposals.
>>
>> That's why I'm such a strong proponent for in person democracy. People will
>> happily spew hate to a screen and watch systems collapse. However, people
>> are much less willing to make a trip in person, be hated in person and then
>> watch the consequences of their actions destroy the space they are in. Also,
>> technological systems are easy to subvert. What would happen when somebody
>> claims their "I block!" button didn't work, and so the last proposal was
>> invalid?
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe I shouldn't worry so much? Maybe when there are Working Groups,
>>> the meetings will be less burdened, and therefore more productive?
>>
>>
>> I'm not familiar with this working group thing?
>>
>>>
>>> But one thing I do want to try is having more reasoned discussions
>>> ahead of the meetings.  Technology helps a lot with that, since I have
>>> no guarantees of when I or anyone else will happen to be in the space
>>> AND want to talk rather than hack.
>>
>>
>> I concur absolutely!
>>
>>  -Xavier
>
>
>
> --
> Naomi Theora Most
> naomi at nthmost.com
> +1-415-728-7490
>
> skype: nthmost
>
> http://twitter.com/nthmost



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost


BTW, to mention one other high-end item I want to sell: Nvidia Tesla
C2070 GPU. $1600 retail. Google its specs; it's a bit absurd.

I'm sure some of you are doing stuff that could use that kind of
compute power. :-)

- Sai

On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Sai <i at s.ai> wrote:
> Howdy all.
>
> I'm leaving the Bay Area semi-permanently in May (thence to MA, CT,
> NY, DC, VA, Budapest, Vienna, Prague, London, & CT again).
>
> If you're around here and would like to get together before then,
> here's a scheduler for a going-away party:
> https://doodle.com/bmt4n85mcxxztszc.
>
> If you're around the East Coast / EU / UK or just prefer 1:1, please
> let me know privately.
>
> I'll miss having Noisebridge nearby, but, well, life changes.
>
> Cheers,
> Sai
>
> P.S. I want to get rid of 99% of my stuff before I leave, 'cause it's
> just not worth shipping. That includes some hackable things I'll be
> donating to Noisebridge (e.g. xbox, kinect, etc) as well as some
> things I'd prefer to sell (e.g. Ninja 250, Ikea futon in good
> condition, shelves, excellent Aeron chair, various tools, etc) and
> some I intend to donate to Out of the Closet (eg clothes, kitchen gear
> etc).
>
> Please LMK privately if you're interested in any of the above.
>
> P.P.S. If you happen know any good immigration lawyers who'd know
> about how to get me a UK visa as the unmarried partner of a UK
> non-settled Tier 2 professional, let me know too. Trying to actually
> understand the rules by just reading them myself is daunting even for
> me. ><



I wasn't there, but I'm thinking more realistically describing the situation would be to remove instances of the word "how" from point #2.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:

"2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."
>
>
>Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>
>>
>>Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>
>>>A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>
>>>1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>
>>>2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>
>>>
>>>4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3 Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person." 
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various shared
living situations.

Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
pour a drink.  Do you?

--Naomi


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The
> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has
> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."
>
> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to
> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your
> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>
>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and
>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really
>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the
>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have
>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>
>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and
>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not
>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this
>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their
>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>
>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is
>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a
>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are
>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>
>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>>
>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful
>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community
>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>
>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are
>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost



All your base are belong to us, Jeffrey. :)



On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:

"!!!11one", "leet", and constant references to "trolls". Are you a time traveler from 10 years ago?
>
>
>
>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Oh noes!!!!11one The MYSTEEEERIOUS leet "Noisebridge Truthers" are going to shut Noisebridge down!
>>
>>
>>AND THE ONLY WAY WE CAN SAVE IT IS BY WINNING THIS SURFING COMPETITION! COME ON, GANG, WE CAN DO IT!
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:23 PM, Gregory Dillon <gregorydillon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Several people say they are okay with removing people who live at  Noisebridge, but no one does it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I am 100% cool with removing both those who use the space to live in and jackasses from the space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:55 AM, John Ellis <neurofog at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Al is about the last person who would encourage using NB as a "homeless shelter". 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no secure space for large items, no showers, and people are hacking within the space 24/7. Some of these hackers have no taste in music either. The NB community discourages overnight sleeping, and/or living at the space.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The most excellent things when in the space is to interact with fellow hackers and cooperate on hacking, or just reach out as a human being.
>>>>> 
>>>>>Most of the people who make snide comments like yours, either spend very little time in the space, or are being an elitist troll. For the next 14 days i'll be making spot checks and any trolls, jackasses or similar will be asked to leave the space immediately.
>>>>>
>>>>>-John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:51 AM, <noisebridgetruth at openmailbox.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Al made a great comment:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the noisebridge-discuss moderators did their job at all, then this thread (or at least noisebridgetruth at openmailbox.org) would be identified and moderated as the unconstructive distraction it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>And as a result, we (those of us who are trying to improve Noisebridge by geting rid of those who threaten its existence) have been in contact with the property owner regarding the use of the facility as an effective "homeless shelter". As a result, a spot check will be arranged at a given point in the next fourteen days.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Time for you guys to make a decision!
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>Let's stay in touch.  Greg 
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
Btw, point of information:

sudo room has a dishwasher. 

--Naomi


> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various shared
> living situations.
> 
> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
> available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
> pour a drink.  Do you?
> 
> --Naomi
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The
>> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has
>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."
>> 
>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to
>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your
>> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and
>>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really
>>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the
>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have
>>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>> 
>>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and
>>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not
>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their
>>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>> 
>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a
>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>> 
>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>>> 
>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community
>>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>> 
>>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Naomi Theora Most
> naomi at nthmost.com
> +1-415-728-7490
> 
> skype: nthmost
> 
> http://twitter.com/nthmost


<RANT>

I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...

The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.

About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  

You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.


Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,


</RANT>





On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>
>
>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>
>
>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>
>
>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>
>>
>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>
>>
>>
>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>
>>Will.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>
>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Hi to all,
>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days and
 me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>
>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>
>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>> 
>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>

Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

<RANT>
>
>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>
>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>
>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>
>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>
>
>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>
>
></RANT>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>
>>
>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>
>>
>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>
>>
>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>
>>>
>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>
>>>Will.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>
>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days and
 me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>

I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:

Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
><RANT>
>>
>>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>
>>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>
>>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>>
>>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>>
>>
>>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>
>>
>></RANT>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>
>>>
>>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>>
>>>
>>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>>
>>>
>>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>
>>>>Will.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
 and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

I actually am too modest to talk about such things publicly (and for other reason) :-D




On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>
>Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>><RANT>
>>>
>>>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>>
>>>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>>
>>>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>>>
>>>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>>>
>>>
>>>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>>
>>>
>>></RANT>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>>
>>>>>Will.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
 and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Certifying that I am user 'yesac' on Slack.


i said it on the other thread and i will say it again.

DISHWASHER

every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!

I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 




On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:

Btw, point of information:
>
>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>
>--Naomi
>
>
>
>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various shared
>> living situations.
>>
>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
>> available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>
>> --Naomi
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The
>>> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has
>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."
>>>
>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to
>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your
>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and
>>>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really
>>>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have
>>>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>>>
>>>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Naomi Theora Most
>> naomi at nthmost.com
>> +1-415-728-7490
>>
>> skype: nthmost
>>
>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>

A dishwasher sounds great, I'd chip in for one too.

I don't believe this will at all help the fact that the space is used as a community kitchen, but whether the dishwasher cleans plates used for that or just used for drinking coffee and eating snacks, I'm all for it.

Dana seems to suggest that Noisebridge once had a dishwasher. In fact, I might remember it as well. What happened to it? Got busted? If so, how?



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:

i said it on the other thread and i will say it again.
>
>
>DISHWASHER
>
>
>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>
>
>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Btw, point of information:
>>
>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>
>>--Naomi
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various shared
>>> living situations.
>>>
>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
>>> available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>
>>> --Naomi
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding."
>>>>
>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash your
>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and understanding and
>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is really
>>>>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>
>>> skype: nthmost
>>>
>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

What I think is that while Noisebridge isn't the place for that (necessarily), I think we can either help create a place that is or direct people to appropriate places.  That is why Naomi suggested we reach out to local hostels/SROs in the hood to see what we can do to help people.  We are not equipped to deal with every situation but we are smart enough to find/create resources that are!



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:

I actually am too modest to talk about such things publicly (and for other reason) :-D
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>
>>Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><RANT>
>>>>
>>>>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>>>
>>>>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>>>
>>>>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>>>>
>>>>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>></RANT>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
 and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>


-- 
Ronald Cotoni
Systems Engineer
The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.

You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:

i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>
>
>DISHWASHER
>
>
>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>
>
>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Btw, point of information:
>>
>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>
>>--Naomi
>> 
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>> living situations.
>>>
>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>
>>> --Naomi
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>
>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>
>>> skype: nthmost
>>>
>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
On 3 April 2014 13:58, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
> <RANT>
> I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I
> thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>
> The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring
> rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters,
> this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It
> was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to
> stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and
> hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in
> the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>
> About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman
> who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she
> was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her
> sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone
> at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers
> to help someone stay warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is
> about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.
>
> You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the
> answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be
> locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing
> on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.
> Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach
> with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and
> benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR
> ROGERS DO.
>
> Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,

Well, it's not necessarily about giving those who need some slack said
slack. It's more about how do you engage everyone else in the space to
actively participate at the level required to give people this kind of
slack.

>From what I saw last year and the year before, the problem was people
not feeling engaged. They'd just hack on their projects and turn a
blind eye to anything else going on that wasn't immediately affecting
them.

I think that is the problem that underpins a lot of the "problems"
that hackerspaces like Noisebridge sees. The "someone else will deal
with it", "it doesn't affect me so why should I get involved", etc
problem.

Note: this isn't limited to hackerspaces. This kind of problem appears
at all levels of society. There's lots of writings on how you get a
local community re-engaged with each other rather than just simply
siloing themselves into their houses and blaming the social problems
on everyone else.


-a



I saw this company mentioned in Rainbow mansion's event feed. It appears that you would be able to pay for small blocks of compute resources on a distributed network using crypto-currency.
That sounds attractive, but what is this product actually? What happens when you run their "miner?" Is this destined to be ruined by wild market speculation? If this is a disruptive tech that will give decentralized hosting access to those without a voice and rabble rousers who won't provide their government issued id, why is it venture backed? Will it usher in a truly decentralized suite of protocols replacing centralized and hierarchical dns & ssl?

I am truly curious. Please discuss.https://www.ethereum.org/

Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher




On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:

The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>
>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>
>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>
>>
>>DISHWASHER
>>
>>
>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>
>>
>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Btw, point of information:
>>>
>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>
>>>--Naomi
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>> living situations.
>>>>
>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>
>>>> --Naomi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>
>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>
>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>
>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

YES! Hackerdom engaging in "Social Hacking" is a TOTALLY EXCELLENT path as it solves many problems and does not endanger the survival of the spaces. 

Let's make no mistake about our ethics=- We're NOT being deprecating of anyone if we are constrained on what can be done in the NB space itself. I will not play games here- this is a case of protecting NB while being a force for good. If we lose NB in trying - no one gains- if we build oh- a SRO under our non-profit umbrella?  Yeah- we may have something,,,

My safe parking for now?  However NB  consenses on creating other spaces for eliminating social ills- will keep us on the side of Excellent Karma:> 



Oren Beck

816.632.3695


On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:50 AM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com> wrote:

What I think is that while Noisebridge isn't the place for that (necessarily), I think we can either help create a place that is or direct people to appropriate places.  That is why Naomi suggested we reach out to local hostels/SROs in the hood to see what we can do to help people.  We are not equipped to deal with every situation but we are smart enough to find/create resources that are!
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I actually am too modest to talk about such things publicly (and for other reason) :-D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>><RANT>
>>>>>
>>>>>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>>>>
>>>>>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>>>>
>>>>>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>>>>>
>>>>>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>></RANT>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>>>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>>>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues,
 so concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
 and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Ronald Cotoni
>Systems Engineer
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

Even if you COULD get people re-engaged, which sounds really doubtful to me, it seems even more doubtful that you'd be able to make it last.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Adrian Chadd <adrian.chadd at gmail.com> wrote:

On 3 April 2014 13:58, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>> <RANT>
>> I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I
>> thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>
>> The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring
>> rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters,
>> this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It
>> was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to
>> stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and
>> hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in
>> the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>
>> About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman
>> who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she
>> was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her
>> sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone
>> at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers
>> to help someone stay warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is
>> about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.
>>
>> You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the
>> answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be
>> locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing
>> on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.
>> Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach
>> with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and
>> benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR
>> ROGERS DO.
>>
>> Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>
>Well, it's not necessarily about giving those who need some slack said
>slack. It's more about how do you engage everyone else in the space to
>actively participate at the level required to give people this kind of
>slack.
>
>>From what I saw last year and the year before, the problem was people
>not feeling engaged. They'd just hack on their projects and turn a
>blind eye to anything else going on that wasn't immediately affecting
>them.
>
>I think that is the problem that underpins a lot of the "problems"
>that hackerspaces like Noisebridge sees. The "someone else will deal
>with it", "it doesn't affect me so why should I get involved", etc
>problem.
>
>Note: this isn't limited to hackerspaces. This kind of problem appears
>at all levels of society. There's lots of writings on how you get a
>local community re-engaged with each other rather than just simply
>siloing themselves into their houses and blaming the social problems
>on everyone else.
>
>
>-a
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>

*sigh* look, I know Praveen would  do this, and probably does! on a regular basis. He's the biggest bleeding heart I know that puts his self, time, and money on the line for these things, at a moment's notice. Thus, I take him pretty seriously.
But I don't think it's a stretch to assume he would understand that co-opting a hard-won, and often endangered nonprofit's physical location, the work of many people, in and out over the years, is not OK. I do trust that.
This is not a "slippery slope" whinefest, this is a 50 gallon drum of lube http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Natural-Water-Based-Lubricant-Gallon/dp/B005MR3IVO/ref=cm_rdp_product coating the face of the Ocean Beach Cliffs issue. With some extra pointy large rocks.
Accommodating housing in a community space isn't something you just sort of tack-on. It wholly takes over.
"It probably wouldn't put your lease in too much danger....." Does not seem like an okay thing to decide for other people. I know we do a lot of wacky things in the space, but this one, the idea of hotelling anyone at the space, is explicitly prohibited, and this isn't an okay risk to take with the security of a space so many people have worked on.
Incidentally, this is why I am so angry at people who DO sleep there. They give no fucks about screwing  everyone else over with their actions. Sometimes they say otherwise, but their actions bear out their genuine regard.
And at the end of all this... Please remember something that I'm sure is anathema to many of us DIY types. ;) Just because it feels good to solve a problem yourself, doesn't mean that you're solving it in the best way. People aren't cheap toy hardware bits.  
Well-meaning people send cans of food and baby clothing to natural disaster-struck areas, and that's not helpful; it's almost a burden on relief organizations. If you give enough of a care to be concerned about them, work with the orgs to set the crashers  up with resources. It's a lot more work than sending an email to a mailing list, bit I'm sure some of you are up for it...
I know that individual homelessness doesn't map directly onto disaster relief, but IMHO, do-acratic flailing direct action "help" tinkering isn't really a great way to help. And Noisebridge is not the place to house it.
I'm sure Praveen is just too modest to talk about how he volunteers up his couch and kitchen and lets people use his apartment as a homeless shelter.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 2:58 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:

Mr Rodgers wouldn't put these people up in a space that doesn't belong to him. 
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>
><RANT>
>>
>>I got a couple of emails off-list questioning my judgment on this, so I thought I would follow up with some other thoughts I had...
>>
>>The other night, I was walking back from consensus in the cold downpouring rain.  I could see my breath and I was soaked.  I know for east coasters, this mild california weather is nothing, but the fact is, SF get's COLD.  It was COLD and WET.  I saw at least one person huddling in a corner trying to stay dry.  I looked at him and remembered the times when I was that cold and hungry and alone -- I was miserable, it was the worst lonliest feeling in the world, and the only thing I wanted was to be in a warm place.
>>
>>About a year and half ago I saw an email to nb-discuss from a young woman who had come to SF recently and had no place to go for the night, and she was escorted out in the middle of the night after being woken up from her sleep.  She related that she was terrified of being out in the streets alone at night in the mission.  I'll happily take the flak from many noisebridgers to help someone stay 
warm on a cold rainy night.  To me, being human is about finding ways to bend the rules and share resources for human benefit.  
>>
>>You all are right, NB is not a homeless shelter.  I don't have all the answers.  Maybe all of you are totally in the right that we should be locking down.  We aren't equipped for it.  I'm not even necessarily arguing on these points.  What I am saying is that people at noisebridge are PEOPLE.  Everyone has feelings, everyone has needs, everyone needs to be approach with, as James Sundquist just said - with dignity and conversation and benefit of the doubt, and not dehumanized and stereotyped.  WHAT WOULD MR ROGERS DO.
>>
>>
>>Or more importantly, how do we give everyone SLACK,
>>
>>
>></RANT>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Awww thanks!!!  I actually think the both of you are quite adorable too!
>>>
>>>
>>>What I think will take a longer time to write up than I have at the moment.  I'll save that for a future post. 
>>>
>>>
>>>In so far as the lease:  I really don't think it's as big as a bogeyperson as people are worrying about.  That's not to say we should have people living in elevator shafts...  
>>>
>>>
>>>But more than that, I do think we should be focused on building positive consensus:  if we focus too much on rigid rules and not enough on the people, then we just get bunch of miserable people:  as much as we wish that legal systems could be like code and we could get it debugged and working like a machine, it's just not that way.  We are people not machines.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 6:38 PM, Will Sargent <will.sargent at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>It's pretty clear that Praveen either doesn't care or can't conceive of any repercussions to Noisebridge as a result of his actions. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>People doing drugs at the space?  Fine.
>>>>People offering drugs at the space?  Also fine.
>>>>People sleeping at the space?  Not just fine, Praveen will actually give you an invitation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The idea that Noisebridge might actually lose its lease is just not there.  The idea that there might be people adversely affected is not there.  There's not even a balancing of good versus bad there -- Praveen thinks it's good, everyone who thinks its bad must be wrong and unexcellent.
>>>>
>>>>Will.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>"Blah blah I got caught living at the space and so i will ramble enough and act confused about how this violates and endangers NB's lease, people will get distracted discussing hypotheticals about a live-in docent. Blah blah. "
>>>>>Praveen, you're adorable, but no, no living at the space. The lease agreement should be the end of the story. Go start another space if you want a hacker space with a lease that allows for a live-in person. Good luck with that.
>>>>>For the record, I wouldn't consider someone for the position who had already pointedly ignored the community rules, based solidly on the agreement with the landlord that NO ONE LIVES IN THE SPACE.
>>>>>
>>>>>On Apr 2, 2014 8:16 PM, "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>Just shortly about my involvement, I'm repeating my self but well looks like the old story is being loved to come out again :-) It is not directly connected to the current cooking in the space, so skip it if you are just sorting out this issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Tastebridge was great fun and it was more or less keeping the back of the Noisebridge (bathrooms and kitchen) operational and because I like things clean and organized it was in general taken as a positive direction. Sometimes we had a screw ups like over fermented bottles of kombucha spraying people around, some stuff not cleaned on time and fridges having out of day items. However in general it was kept well, we did catering for 5 min of fame events, member meetings, underground markets etc. promoting our activities from that and getting also part of our budget.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Al's announcement that I'm moving out with my name in the subject was a good show of how not to do stuff in that time in the community, caused a lots of drama and Al was shouted at a lot. The main reason was because he did not give me time and space to talk about that, especially not with mediators or few members being present from both yes and no sides. This was really pity I think because I would definitely not endanger my position in the community with such a fopa especially when I had another options, which I had. So in another words big drama which could be sorted quite quietly. To be absolutely honest it was maybe better that it become a big issue, because I feel now much more with the people who are targeted in a similar manner for variety of actions even when things can be sorted in a reasonable way. Public mop. However again in that time, the resolution was found very quickly and I could continue with my activities without any issues, so
 concerning the work no harm done, for the integrity of the Noisebridge community not the best. Now after the years with keeping an eye on the activities in the space from around the world through the discuss and talking to friends I have still the feeling that the main target by Al was actually me not directly my activities, that is at least my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>After being active in many hackerspaces around the world I think that having separate living quarters/areas for people involved in community places is a good idea and I vote for that, really looking forward to help out the build up of by Mitch promoting hacker residency programs. If people live in their working places it gets often too intensive, they become too obsessive and if someone doesn't like someone else it is blocking the energies/flow in the place. So I'm now more for separate accommodation and living arrangements seems to me neater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This paragraph you my skip it is too long for many just quick personal explanation :-) Concerning my sleeping/living in the place, it intensified especially at the end of my stay in SF when I have found out that I have to sort out with the immigration my stay because when I entered the USA the last time they did not give me the stamp on the border and when I left the time before they did not signed me off, so it looked like that I'm in the states nearly for 2 years which is not exactly what my PhD. visa for 6 months would allow. If I had to leave immediately the states I would have to train a new brewer in Three Stone Hearth Kitchen where I was a master brewer and that would be an issue, because at least month or so should be needed. So when I realized what issues I'm potentially facing I had around one week or 10 days more or less to sort that out, with possibly leaving the place immediately after. That cause way more than 16 hours working days
 and me staying in he place. I've stayed in the place in the months before over the night, which sometimes meant finishing up around 3 am brewing class and getting up before 7 am to leave for Berkeley to brew. However majority of the time, and that means 5-6 days per week I was happily sleeping somewhere close to the beach, in the park, out of the town, with friends couch surfing, name it. That I liked, staying at Noisebridge over the night was kind of must and I tried o avoid it both because of potential troubles and not doing me well. Believe it or not I do not like to overstep if I know that the community doesn't approve of that in general, but well in this case I did and I appologised. However as I said especially at the period when I had to sort out my issues with the immigration I was staying around more and that was not good for anyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>Well I think that would be enough for recapitulation, have a good time and I hope you manage to keep the place running nice and open, based on consensus with active
 community showing the direction. It was possible before, it can be done again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thursday, April 3, 2014 3:26 AM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>when i first started doing 5mof a few years ago, part of the ritual was getting there from work and taking a nap in a comfy chair before i started doing event-related stuff.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>frantisek was one of the first people i ever encountered at the space and his implementation of tastebridge was focused and well-run.  i didn't really see it as a problem that he was living at the space, since i noticed that after he was ejected, less productive and helpful people replaced him, and the overall cleanliness and good working order of the space declined. him being there most of the time was a great benefit to the space, because he did genuinely care about the state of the space he was using and made up his use of resources by providing the intangible service of near-constant management.  i do read all his emails, and i agree with praveen that his insights are valuable, possibly more so than other people who are currently overseas and continue to post to the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Some of the best nb hackers have slept at nb once or twice. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Nb has only ITSELF to blame. When you open the door to all comers, don't be shocked at their behavior. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>From: "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com>
>>>>>>>To: "Jeffrey Carl Faden" <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>Cc: "Frantisek Apfelbeck" <algoldor at yahoo.com>; "NoiseBridge Discuss" <noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net>
>>>>>>>Sent: 4/2/2014 8:53:41 AM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Cooking in the space, update
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>Seriously.  
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Frantisek, you covertly squatted in the NB space, and got all apology-tastic when you got caught. 
>>>>>>>>You should have the sense and humility to recuse yourself from all topics that are addressing the serious problem of  "how do we stop people from trying to live in the space".  Even if it's your pet "I like to ferment things" workspace. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Somehow, you don't have the clue or grace to back the fuck off. So I will suggest it for you. Back away from this thread, no one read your rambling email. If you're distressed, consider that it's actions like YOURS that made it impossible for Noisebridge to have a pleasantly luxurious kitchen. Great job. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- Ceren 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Reminder: biotechnologist & kvasir and hacker Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck from Kasiri, Jeju repeatedly slept in the off-limits south stairwell at Noisebridge, so anything he has to say about proper use of facilities should be taken with a grain of salt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jeffrey
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Frantisek Apfelbeck <algoldor at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Hi to all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Just few notes on the kitchen, I have run and helped to equip many around the world and on variety of hacker events especially in last few years under the Food Hacking Base project which the Tastebridge was a first step I would say. It is interesting to see so many hackerspaces going forward on biotech, food hacking and brewing with Noisebridge being one of the forerunners with amazing set up around 2010 and 2011 and now well ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>stove - crucial. If you do not have a stove you can not cook most of the meals and brewing is an issue for many types of beverages, also you will have really problem to sterilize - pressure cooker works fine if you have one. Kitchen without stove is close to not being a kitchen, biotech applications need sterilization most of the time and heat treatment of ingredients is often crucial (and microwave is not a cure for everything).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>fridge - very important. To keep you perishable food ingredients, cultures and of course nice cold drinks it is more or less necessity, at least for reasonable food and beverage hacking. Kitchen without fridge is doable but quite an issue.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>preparation place - working bench if you like, crucial. Having some space to work on is crucial especially if you want to work fast and safe. Do not underestimate the height of the bench it hits your back if is too low or too high. This one is really important on hands on workshops.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>sinks - crucial. For keeping the place clean and the work flow continuous sinks and preferably running water are really a key. If you do not have it, you are in trouble. Dishwasher works too, but well sink is sink. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>storage - for dry ingredients especially. If you want to play around you need your ingredients and they need to stored properly. Stainless steel or glass well sealed work very well, plastic is a good cheap alternative. Insect and rats may be an issue if they get out of hand which was a case in the building many times so this one has to be kept in mind. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The answer to how to keep the kitchen clean is both simple and complicated. The way which works for me and projects in which I'm involved is to get together people who enjoy playing with food, hacking, brewing, biotech and consuming&enjoying the products of their efforts and let them to organize the spot, sometimes poke them a bit if the things go out of hand. Better environment you have from the point of view of equipment/infrastructure and funds, more likely you are to form a nice and vibrant community around it and enjoy their achievements. Note as most of  the things in community the social interactions are really important and preparing and sharing the meals and drinks brings together people really well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Best of luck with your kitchen plans, try to keep it nice and functional, it will pay off eventually. However even if you decide to destroy it, which I do not consider wise because it will not touch a core of the current problem, when the time comes, it will be build again, it will just require bit more dedicated people than if it is already standing and ready to be used. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Sincerely from Kasiri, Jeju,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Frantisek Algoldor Apfelbeck
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>PS Just a note, yes the Noisebridge community has a major social issues and to start to resolve them lots of time and energy from people who are socially developed and sensitive will be needed, the question for you now is how to get them involved and enjoy their work and being productive. 091 labs in Galway, Ireland are running for a brewing classes for a while and it is generating lots of positive interest. Add some tech related project like the experimental incubator build up and you can start to move the things forward in a sound way - friendly, social and organized. 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>biotechnologist&kvasir and hacker
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.frantisekapfelbeck.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"There is no way to peace, peace is the way." Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

so uh

http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/

in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.  




On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:

Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
>https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>>
>>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>
>>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>>
>>>
>>>DISHWASHER
>>>
>>>
>>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>>
>>>
>>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Btw, point of information:
>>>>
>>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>
>>>>--Naomi
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>>> living situations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>
>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>
>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>
>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>

We have that at an office where I contract. It's never accurate.

At home we have a dishwasher that latches manually, so when it's closed it's cleaning/clean, and when it's open it's not. Would probably be easier to have a sign explaining this rather than having an indicator that is separate from the dishwasher itself.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:32 PM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:

so uh
>
>
>http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>
>
>in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.  
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>>>
>>>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>>>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>
>>>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>DISHWASHER
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Btw, point of information:
>>>>>
>>>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>
>>>>>--Naomi
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>>>> living situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>

A dishwasher will not change the behavior of people who leave kitchen garbage and dirty plates out. Anyone who has ever had a roommate, ever, knows that. And hell, usually, I'm "that" roommate!
On Apr 3, 2014 7:33 PM, "daravinne" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:

so uh
>
>
>http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>
>
>in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.  
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>>>
>>>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>>>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>
>>>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>DISHWASHER
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Btw, point of information:
>>>>>
>>>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>
>>>>>--Naomi
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>>>> living situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>
>
Sure it will. Anyone who sees this dishwasher will never disrespect the space:



On 04/03/2014 at 4:36 PM, "Ceren Ercen" <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
A dishwasher will not change the behavior of people who leave kitchen garbage and dirty plates out. Anyone who has ever had a roommate, ever, knows that. And hell, usually, I'm "that" roommate!
>On Apr 3, 2014 7:33 PM, "daravinne" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>so uh
>>
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>>
>>
>>in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>>>>
>>>>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>>>>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>DISHWASHER
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Btw, point of information:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--Naomi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>>>>> living situations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
                    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
Noisebridge-discuss mailing list Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss 
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>>Pretty sure the dishwasher either broke or was never properly set up
to begin with.  It was only in the space for maybe 3 months after we
opened at 2169.

--Naomi


On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
> A dishwasher will not change the behavior of people who leave kitchen
> garbage and dirty plates out. Anyone who has ever had a roommate, ever,
> knows that. And hell, usually, I'm "that" roommate!
>
> On Apr 3, 2014 7:33 PM, "daravinne" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> so uh
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>>
>> in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes
>> before putting them in the dishwasher.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single,
>>> easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not.
>>> Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously
>>> out of date:
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to
>>>> wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before
>>>> putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite
>>>> expensive.
>>>>
>>>> You are entitled to your own opinion.
>>>> You are NOT entitled to your own facts.
>>>>
>>>> Norman
>>>>
>>>> On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>>
>>>> i said it on the other thread and i will say it again.
>>>>
>>>> DISHWASHER
>>>>
>>>> every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes,
>>>> myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual
>>>> labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes
>>>> be washed themselves!
>>>>
>>>> I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Btw, point of information:
>>>>>
>>>>> sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
>>>>> > dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various
>>>>> > shared
>>>>> > living situations.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
>>>>> > something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
>>>>> > available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
>>>>> > pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --Naomi
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com>
>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>> >> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the
>>>>> >> kitchen. The
>>>>> >> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish
>>>>> >> and has
>>>>> >> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are
>>>>> >> mobilized to
>>>>> >> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community
>>>>> >> understanding."
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not
>>>>> >> have to
>>>>> >> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash
>>>>> >> your
>>>>> >> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and
>>>>> >>> understanding and
>>>>> >>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is
>>>>> >>> really
>>>>> >>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist
>>>>> >>> <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of
>>>>> >>>> the
>>>>> >>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake
>>>>> >>>> were
>>>>> >>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to
>>>>> >>>> have
>>>>> >>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person
>>>>> >>>> and
>>>>> >>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen
>>>>> >>>> will not
>>>>> >>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that
>>>>> >>>> this
>>>>> >>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to
>>>>> >>>> speak their
>>>>> >>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain
>>>>> >>>> perspective by
>>>>> >>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you
>>>>> >>>> is
>>>>> >>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space
>>>>> >>>> without a
>>>>> >>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable
>>>>> >>>> are
>>>>> >>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the
>>>>> >>>> kitchen.
>>>>> >>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash
>>>>> >>>> a dish and
>>>>> >>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are
>>>>> >>>> mobilized to
>>>>> >>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community
>>>>> >>>> understanding.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a
>>>>> >>>> respectful
>>>>> >>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because
>>>>> >>>> community
>>>>> >>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how
>>>>> >>>> people are
>>>>> >>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're
>>>>> >>>> a 501c3
>>>>> >>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This
>>>>> >>>> is a
>>>>> >>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash
>>>>> >>>> your own
>>>>> >>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Naomi Theora Most
>>>>> > naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>> > +1-415-728-7490
>>>>> >
>>>>> > skype: nthmost
>>>>> >
>>>>> > http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost



Thanks for trolling the list with that nsfw image.  Moderators can we moderate that user?
On Apr 3, 2014 5:00 PM, "Naomi Most" <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:

Pretty sure the dishwasher either broke or was never properly set up
>to begin with.  It was only in the space for maybe 3 months after we
>opened at 2169.
>
>--Naomi
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Ceren Ercen <ceren at ercen.com> wrote:
>> A dishwasher will not change the behavior of people who leave kitchen
>> garbage and dirty plates out. Anyone who has ever had a roommate, ever,
>> knows that. And hell, usually, I'm "that" roommate!
>>
>> On Apr 3, 2014 7:33 PM, "daravinne" <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> so uh
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>>>
>>> in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes
>>> before putting them in the dishwasher.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single,
>>>> easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not.
>>>> Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously
>>>> out of date:
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to
>>>>> wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before
>>>>> putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite
>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are entitled to your own opinion.
>>>>> You are NOT entitled to your own facts.
>>>>>
>>>>> Norman
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> i said it on the other thread and i will say it again.
>>>>>
>>>>> DISHWASHER
>>>>>
>>>>> every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes,
>>>>> myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual
>>>>> labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes
>>>>> be washed themselves!
>>>>>
>>>>> I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, point of information:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I have no problem believing that some people don't know how to get
>>>>>> > dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many times in my various
>>>>>> > shared
>>>>>> > living situations.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Asserting that people "should not" do a thing if they are ignorant of
>>>>>> > something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't know how to read what's
>>>>>> > available in people's brains as they take a glass from the shelf and
>>>>>> > pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --Naomi
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >> "2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the
>>>>>> >> kitchen. The
>>>>>> >> average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash a dish
>>>>>> >> and has
>>>>>> >> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are
>>>>>> >> mobilized to
>>>>>> >> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community
>>>>>> >> understanding."
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very simple thing.  We should not
>>>>>> >> have to
>>>>>> >> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If you do not know how to wash
>>>>>> >> your
>>>>>> >> own dishes, then you should not be using a community kitchen.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these conversations and
>>>>>> >>> understanding and
>>>>>> >>> getting past preconceptions of each other and reporting back is
>>>>>> >>> really
>>>>>> >>> really important foundational work.  Big plus!!!
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James Sundquist
>>>>>> >>> <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Last night there was a lengthy discussion about communal usage of
>>>>>> >>>> the
>>>>>> >>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake
>>>>>> >>>> were
>>>>>> >>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy, responsibility, and how to
>>>>>> >>>> have
>>>>>> >>>> effective communication about the kitchen.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> A big take away was that people need to talk about this in-person
>>>>>> >>>> and
>>>>>> >>>> consider how it impacts everyone, because removing the kitchen
>>>>>> >>>> will not
>>>>>> >>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by itself.  I just want to note that
>>>>>> >>>> this
>>>>>> >>>> really was a discussion, which included everyone being able to
>>>>>> >>>> speak their
>>>>>> >>>> mind while being respected; the point of talking was to gain
>>>>>> >>>> perspective by
>>>>>> >>>> asking questions rather than talking over others.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of the kitchen do not respect you
>>>>>> >>>> is
>>>>>> >>>> because they do not know you or feel any connection in the space
>>>>>> >>>> without a
>>>>>> >>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid concerns of those who want to disable
>>>>>> >>>> are
>>>>>> >>>> unknown to the daily users of the kitchen.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> 2) There is no clear understanding of how to properly use the
>>>>>> >>>> kitchen.
>>>>>> >>>> The average person in the kitchen does not understand how to wash
>>>>>> >>>> a dish and
>>>>>> >>>> has an opportunity to be taught. Once again a couple people are
>>>>>> >>>> mobilized to
>>>>>> >>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no greater community
>>>>>> >>>> understanding.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> 3) It is difficult to know how capable we all are of having a
>>>>>> >>>> respectful
>>>>>> >>>> conversation to allows people to maintain their dignity, because
>>>>>> >>>> community
>>>>>> >>>> building should be the goal when people are in conflict.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> 4) A big part of this as I understood it was reassessing how
>>>>>> >>>> people are
>>>>>> >>>> introduced to this space.  Example, "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're
>>>>>> >>>> a 501c3
>>>>>> >>>> Non-profit that encourages education and learning by doing.  This
>>>>>> >>>> is a
>>>>>> >>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base minimum you're expected to wash
>>>>>> >>>> your own
>>>>>> >>>> dishes and keep your work area clean for the next person."
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> >> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > --
>>>>>> > Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>> > naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>> > +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > skype: nthmost
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Naomi Theora Most
>naomi at nthmost.com
>+1-415-728-7490
>
>skype: nthmost
>
>http://twitter.com/nthmost
>_______________________________________________
>Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>





On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for trolling the list with that nsfw image.  Moderators can we moderate that user?
>
>

Their e-mail address is mod'ed.



-- 

-Snailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnailssnails
............. _ at y
http://obamaischeckingyouremail.tumblr.com/

 things you need have people do if you had a dishwasher

1.   Take dishes back to the kitchen. Some people flat out refuses. 

2.    Scrap food solids into compost and put noncompostables into recycle or garbage.   

3.    Rinse only in the left sink (the one with the garbage disposal).  The other two are not connected to it so constantly clogs with solids. 

4.    Load dishwasher when reasonably full.  Add the correct amount of the correct chemicals.  Which buttons to push to turn on(special class needed).

5.    Unload clean dishes immediately when done so dirty dishes does not get mixed with clean ones. Load dirty dishes accmulated while dishwasher was working.

6.   Which items has to be hand washed.

Etc.

Item 1  has been a challenge and  how much more you want them to do?

-------- Original message --------
From: Jeffrey Carl Faden 
Date:04/03/2014  4:35 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: daravinne 
Cc: noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net 
Subject: Re: [Noisebridge-discuss] Having a discussion about the kitchen 


We have that at an office where I contract. It's never accurate.

At home we have a dishwasher that latches manually, so when it's closed it's cleaning/clean, and when it's open it's not. Would probably be easier to have a sign explaining this rather than having an indicator that is separate from the dishwasher itself.



On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:32 PM, daravinne <daravinne at gmail.com> wrote:

so uh
>
>
>http://www.amazon.com/InterDesign-Clean-Dirty-Dishwasher-Indicator/dp/B00004XSF9/
>
>
>in the same vein, a reminder sign reminding people to scrape their dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.  
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Agreed. And there's the even simpler problem of not having a single, easy-to-follow system to determine whether the contents are clean or not. Still interested in hearing how the first one went away. This is obviously out of date:
>>https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Dishwasher
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Norman Bradley <pryankster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>The problem I see with a dishwasher is that if people "don't know how to wash a disk" then they will most likely won't scrape off the dishes before putting in the washer. Repeatedly fixing a plugged up washer can get quite expensive.
>>>
>>>You are entitled to your own opinion.
You are NOT entitled to your own facts. Norman
>>>On 4/3/2014 3:28 PM, daravinne wrote:
>>>
>>>i said it on the other thread and i will say it again. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>DISHWASHER
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>every company i've worked at has a dishwasher.  i hate washing dishes, myself.  i don't want to waste time away from projects to do boring manual labor like washing dishes.  and look! we have the technology to make dishes be washed themselves!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am willing to throw money at obtaining a dishwasher for the space. 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Naomi Gmail <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Btw, point of information:
>>>>>
>>>>>sudo room has a dishwasher.
>>>>>
>>>>>--Naomi
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 12:29 PM, Naomi Most <pnaomi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no problem believing that some people
                    don't know how to get
>>>>>> dishes clean.  I have seen that happen many
                    times in my various shared
>>>>>> living situations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Asserting that people "should not" do a thing
                    if they are ignorant of
>>>>>> something is basically a nonstarter.  I don't
                    know how to read what's
>>>>>> available in people's brains as they take a
                    glass from the shelf and
>>>>>> pour a drink.  Do you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Hannah
                    Grimm <dharlette at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "2) There is no clear understanding of how
                    to properly use the kitchen. The
>>>>>>> average person in the kitchen does not
                    understand how to wash a dish and has
>>>>>>> an opportunity to be taught. Once again a
                    couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there is no
                    greater community understanding."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me, what?  Dishwashing is a very
                    simple thing.  We should not have to
>>>>>>> teach people how to wash the dishes.  If
                    you do not know how to wash your
>>>>>>> own dishes, then you should not be using a
                    community kitchen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Praveen
                    Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT HELL YEAH
                    COMMUNITY BUILDING
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks so much James and Dana, these
                    conversations and understanding and
>>>>>>>> getting past preconceptions of each
                    other and reporting back is really
>>>>>>>> really important foundational work.
                     Big plus!!!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM, James
                    Sundquist <sundquistjames at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last night there was a lengthy
                    discussion about communal usage of the
>>>>>>>>> kitchen that spontaneously lasted
                    from 9 - 11:30.  Coffee and cake were
>>>>>>>>> served.  We talked about do-ocracy,
                    responsibility, and how to have
>>>>>>>>> effective communication about the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A big take away was that people
                    need to talk about this in-person and
>>>>>>>>> consider how it impacts everyone,
                    because removing the kitchen will not
>>>>>>>>> remove Noisebridge's problems by
                    itself.  I just want to note that this
>>>>>>>>> really was a discussion, which
                    included everyone being able to speak their
>>>>>>>>> mind while being respected; the
                    point of talking was to gain perspective by
>>>>>>>>> asking questions rather than
                    talking over others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) A big reason the daily users of
                    the kitchen do not respect you is
>>>>>>>>> because they do not know you or
                    feel any connection in the space without a
>>>>>>>>> communal kitchen.  Any valid
                    concerns of those who want to disable are
>>>>>>>>> unknown to the daily users of the
                    kitchen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) There is no clear understanding
                    of how to properly use the kitchen.
>>>>>>>>> The average person in the kitchen
                    does not understand how to wash a dish and
>>>>>>>>> has an opportunity to be taught.
                    Once again a couple people are mobilized to
>>>>>>>>> micromanage the kitchen, but there
                    is no greater community understanding.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) It is difficult to know how
                    capable we all are of having a respectful
>>>>>>>>> conversation to allows people to
                    maintain their dignity, because community
>>>>>>>>> building should be the goal when
                    people are in conflict.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) A big part of this as I
                    understood it was reassessing how people are
>>>>>>>>> introduced to this space.  Example,
                    "Welcome to Noisebridge; we're a 501c3
>>>>>>>>> Non-profit that encourages
                    education and learning by doing.  This is a
>>>>>>>>> Do-It-Yourself space so at a base
                    minimum you're expected to wash your own
>>>>>>>>> dishes and keep your work area
                    clean for the next person."
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
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>

Hi, we had a leak that was either from the dishwasher, the sink, or the *washing machine in the closet*.  Remember the secret washing machine?  

The water from that leak went down through the floor to the 2nd floor and ruined some of their fabric and other things and they called us to ask for help. The landlord and building manager had to get involved. I don't know if we ever paid the 2nd floor folks for the damage. 

If anyone else remembers the details or what happened about that leak, could you mail the list so that people maintaining the kitchen now have the details?  

Cheers,


- liz

Sudoroom has a radical inclusion kitchen policy.

http://doctorglebov.ru/shwartsman_operation.html


This is behind the kitchen. We are throwing it out tomorrow. If it's yours, get it out of noisebridge.






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