[Noisebridge-discuss] modern sexism
linkreincarnate at gmail.com
Wed Mar 19 21:49:07 UTC 2014
This is the third time I am trying to get this message through moderation.
I guess my TONE was bad last time...
This is going to be very hard for many of you to digest, very long winded
and I am probably burning all of my social capital, but here we go. If
your mind is made up already about the validity of feminist claims maybe
you should avoid reading this. Except you Lupita, you asked for this.
If you aren't sure that what feminist preach is the gospel by all means
"Like I'm not black, so I know I can never be a black panther, and that is
okay, even though I support many of the ideals of the black power movement
and try to be as supportive of black people as I can. "
This is where we differ in opinion you think that militant racists groups
are perfectly ok because they target whites instead of blacks. (You
probably think that black people cannot be racist) No group that
advocates violence or exclusion on the basis of how a person was born is
ok. Period. Not agreeing with the New Black Panthers doesn't make you
racist no matter how much they would like to convince you it does. Being
born a certain color doesn't make you a racist either but that's another
Actually it's the analogy doesn't even hold. Why? Because when white
people asked how they could support the (original BP not the NBP that the
ADL defines as a hate group) Black Panthers they were told they could be
White Panthers. This is a moniker that isn't inherently a subclass to the
Black Panthers the way you think men should be in the feminism movement.
You act as if feminists don't argue among themselves about the
feminist/ally debate. (So much for feminism isn't a monolith) So every
feminist that thinks a man should be allowed to refer to himself as one are
also all misogynist assholes too. Even the women? Or are they actually
allowed to disagree with you? Are they No True Feminists?
"Therefore, only women can truly be involved in the movement, and non-women
can best help out by being supportive but leaving the main space for women."
So men should be seen but not heard. Where have I heard that before? But
why is that so hard to digest and accept right? I should be happy to be
told to sit in the corner and look pretty while to women make all of the
important decisions. At least that way I avoid being labeled a misogynist
for having opinions.
Women are not the same as black people.(unless you are a black woman) They
are not oppressed as a class despite what patriarchy theory states. There
are individual instances of oppression. Not enough to quality for (or need)
a liberation movement. They were never slaves to begin with. Women
have not suffered the way african americans have. The suffering of women
does not even compare to the suffering of african americans. If you want
to see what a society that is stacked against you looks like look at how
America treated blacks in the 50's. Less so today but there are still
vestiges of it left over. Attempts to co-op african-american movements
cheapens their legitimate concerns.
"The thing where modern feminism went wrong is when they started talking
about equality. I don't want equality, I was liberation. Equality means
being like men, and I kind of don't want women to rape and murder at the
same rate as men."
*THIS IS THE BIGOTED SEXISM THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH FEMINISM. *
I bet you loved the scum manifesto...(ok that probably isn't true...I hope)
Your premise simply isn't true. Lets look closer and actually think about
it and test it. TBH I was so hoping someone would repeat this since I have
heard it several times around noisebridge. Usually with a group feminists
yelling down any dissent en mass.
"Currently, in statistical data such as that gathered by the CDC, for whom
feminist Mary Koss acts as a consultant, such men are not considered rape
victims, even if they have been forced into sex. Previous year data in
their latest NISVS showed an equal number of male and female victims of sex
obtained through force, threats or incapacitation (and attempts, which they
did not separate out in either case), and a significant perpetration rate
among women, however, Koss (and thus, the CDC) does not consider a woman
forcing a man to have heterosexual sex to be rape. "
Here is some actual data.
40 percent of rapes are committed by women. That whole women = innocence
narrative seems to be showing cracks.
That is not even going into the stigma associated with men reporting any
kind (In before that's the Patriarchy's fault)
Not to mention that the conviction rate of men accused of rape is higher
than that of murder. According the the DOJ crime statistics. (Sorry no
link on that you can google it though right?) You think there might be any
bias against men accused of rape? No there's no way that could be true.
And the conviction rate of women is artificially depressed.
I'm not sure how much those details change the numbers but but I think that
brings things a lot closer to equity.
And lets not get into the false accusations argument. Though that is also
misrepresented by feminism. (We actually can go into it if you want but my
first link does touch on that a bit)
So sure, men commit more rapes*
(*for lopsided misandric definitions of rape)
What about the greater narrative that women = innocence? Or are somehow
inherently morally superior on thanks to their superior genetalia. (Really
they are great though I think we can all find common ground there at least)
Who do you think is more likely to engage in child abuse? Women, being 3
times more likely to perpetuate child abuse according to federal hhs
studies. (Admittedly a little dated being from 2001 but there is no reason
to suggest that this trend is not still present.)
How about domestic abuse. That should be a grand slam for feminism right?
Well not so fast...
"This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical
studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as
physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships
with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the
reviewed studies exceeds 371,600. "
*Whistles. Man that is a whole LOT of science that disproves that premise.
The difference between you and me is that I wont try to paint all women
as inherently dangerous because of a statistic. Statistics dont fucking
work that way! I don't try to paint a picture where I deny people of my
gender are capable of doing evil acts.
It is misandry to try and tie rape and murder to Masculinity wholesale.
What purpose does associating rape to manhood serve? Who does all the
"How is that a hard concept to respect, unless you keep to your male
socialization and demand to enter every space women try to create, and
can't accept the word "no" from women. In which case, you shouldn't be
welcomed because you have alternative motives that don't involve helping
I highlight how you managed to imply I was a rapist (or at least a little
rapey) there by saying I didn't understand what no means (specifically
from women). I also noticed that subtle invocation of the "No means No"
campaign. Implying that I am a rapist still doesn't mean I'm wrong. It
is a good sign that your argument holds no weight. If you are resorting to
that type of chilling effect invoking tactics then you must be running
As far as men demanding to enter a female dominated sphere of thought
(feminism is not a space) goes. It is incongruent to simultaneously hold
the idea that men who want to be included equally in feminism are immoral
and have questionable motives but women pushing their influence into male
dominated spheres of influence are not immoral. The two actions are
identical. Either it's ok for either sex to enter thought spaces dominated
by the other sex. Or it's not. If you believe it isn't (as you have
stated) then to be consistent with your logic you have to argue that women
pushing their way into male dominated fields is equally immoral because
those men have the right to define their own organization. Obviously that
position would cause further cognitive dissonance since that is action is
the primary imputus of feminism. So the latter must be true and you simply
hold two contradicing opinions on this matter.
That's the problem I have with the men can't be feminist idea. It leads to
a contradiction of either feminism or itself. Meanwhile (assuming you
believe patriarchy theory) you are telling the male victims of patriarchic
oppresion that they should not be allowed any say in how that they deal
with that oppression. Unless you hold the view that men are (on an
individual basis) persecuting themselves instead of being persecuted by men
as a whole. This view seems patently ridiculous to me though.
Also note I did not criticize your use of the word male. I did not say you
were reducing men to the status of an animal. You did just that then
another person dared use the word female a while back.
I certainly DON"T identify as a feminist so symbolically stripping me of
the title doesn't phase me one whit. Go ahead, call me
a misogynist rape apologist. I am not going to be deterred or intimidated
by your social terrorism. It doesn't make me wrong one bit
and intelligent people will judge my arguments on their merits not on the
basis of what ideological tribe I belong to or how pissed off I am when I
type these responses.
I am a humanist who believes in equality. I dont believe in placing one
group above reproach in the interest of revenge for past sexism and
I have placed my life the line to prevent kidnappings, stop date rape, and
fight (physically and verbally) rapists and I have the scars to prove it.
But you keep on criticizing people on the internet for their word choice or
jokes. I'm sure it helps.
Oh and quoting a statistic to a rape victim (whoever it was that did that a
while back) about how rape victims are more likely to perpetrate rape is a
form of victim shaming and something that rapist have been known to say to
rape victims in an attempt to cause a nervous breakdown (I suspect to make
them less believable witnesses.) You are telling them they are going to
become what they hate more than anything else in the world. But I guess
being right in an internet argument is worth it.
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