[Noisebridge-discuss] Noisebridge House Rules

Torrie Fischer tdfischer at hackerbots.net
Mon Mar 24 15:26:58 UTC 2014


On Saturday, March 22, 2014 18:30:47 Dan Cote wrote:
> It's a long standing property of Noisebridge that we favor individual
> freedom over codified policies. I know that we are experiencing an identity
> crisis at the moment, and we are rethinking how we do things, which is
> good. All of the line items look fine to me, but their name and tone is
> authoritarian. I would not support this in it's current form and
> respectfully ask that it be reworked before being brought for consensus
> again.
> 
> We have and have had community standards that are very similar to these,
> and my suggestion would be that we remove "house rules" and we clean up and
> revise "community standards."
> 
> What we need is not official sounding rules, but consistent and
> compassionate reinforcement of our community standards. I would and do
> support anyone who asks someone to leave based on the behavior patterns
> listed on either list.

As a discussion prompt, how would you encourage more people to reinforce the 
community standards?

> 
> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Community_standards
> 
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Gregory Dillon 
<gregorydillon at gmail.com>wrote:
> > Keving   I'd like to come to a good fair and workable solution.   I'm
> > somewhat reticent  because I'm concerned that collaborating will slide
> > into
> > a process that is more about delaying than implementing a solution.
> > 
> > But please contact me off-list and let's talk.
> > 
> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> On March 19, 2014 12:19:44 PM PDT, Gregory Dillon <
> >> 
> >> gregorydillon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Kevin,
> >> > No one said Folsom prison for naptime.
> >> > 
> >> >  Are you - or are you not, going to include prohibiting sleeping at
> >> > 
> >> > Noisebridge in your version of the house rules.?
> >> > 
> >> > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> > > On March 19, 2014 11:45:24 AM PDT, Gregory Dillon
> >> > 
> >> > <gregorydillon at gmail.com>
> >> > 
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > Tthe meeting notes say
> >> > > > 
> >> > > >  Kevin is willing to accept prohibiting sleeping at Noisebridge,
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > - Will that be part of your proposal?
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Kevin <bfb at riseup.net> wrote:
> >> > > > > On March 19, 2014 11:07:24 AM PDT, Jessica Ross
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > <jessica.r.ross at gmail.com>
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > Why can't you guys rebut this with "It's against the terms of
> >> > 
> >> > the
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > lease and
> >> > > > > > could get us evicted"?
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > It's BS that you're even still debating this!
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Al Sweigart
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > <asweigart at gmail.com>
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > Kevin is against banning sleeping at the space because he
> >> > 
> >> > and
> >> > 
> >> > > > his
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > friends
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > like to sleep at the space. He helped build the "hacker
> >> > 
> >> > stacker"
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > bunk beds
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > that were in the space which, unsurprisingly, were used for
> >> > 
> >> > more
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > than just
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > short naps in the space.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > Kevin will single-handedly block any measure to ban sleeping
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > without
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > > compromise, because consensus lets him do this. He is
> >> > 
> >> > against
> >> > 
> >> > > > any
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > actual
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > punitive consequences because he knows that even if people
> >> > 
> >> > are
> >> > 
> >> > > > woken
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > up and
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > told not to sleep at the space, they can just do so again
> >> > 
> >> > the
> >> > 
> >> > > > next
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > night
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > (or just later that same morning).
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > Hey, if the majority of Noisebridge members said they were
> >> > 
> >> > fine
> >> > 
> >> > > > with
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > > people sleeping at the space, I would back down on my
> >> > 
> >> > stance.
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > Whereas Kevin
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > will barge in on a meeting an hour late and then get his
> >> > 
> >> > way.
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > > The thing that gets me is that he doesn't even have to
> >> > 
> >> > publicly
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > defend his
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > unpopular view in order to get his way. (Note that he didn't
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > mention
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > > sleeping at all in his email on this thread, even though
> >> > 
> >> > that's
> >> > 
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > > elephant in the room.) All he has to do is keep saying
> >> > 
> >> > "there
> >> > 
> >> > > > needs
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > to more
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > discussion" week after week until the issue fades into the
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > background once
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > more.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:35 AM, Kevin Schiesser
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > <bfb at riseup.net>
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >> Brandon Edens:
> >> > > > > > >> > Hi all,
> >> > > > > > >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> > The consensus of Noisebridge is that we have some house
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > rules.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > You can
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> read
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> > about them here...
> >> 
> >> https://github.com/noisebridge/bureaucracy/blob/master/rules/house-rules.
> >> md
> >> 
> >> > > > > > >> > Enjoy!
> >> > > > > > >> > Brandon
> >> > > > > > >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > >> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > > > > > >> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> I barged into the open meeting an hour late tonight and
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > rejected
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> civility of passing this proposal, given I had aired
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > unaddressed
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> concerns. Discussion on the proposal was reopened, hence
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > Noisebridge has
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> not come to consensus on 'house rules'.
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> I will be preparing an alternative draft. If anyone wants
> >> > 
> >> > to
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> collaborate, contact me via email or let's work though
> >> > 
> >> > github.
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> Generally, I favor 'community agreements'. I oppose
> >> > 
> >> > punitive
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > measures,
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> and do not believe punitive measure will positively
> >> > 
> >> > transform
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > Noisebridge.
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> If agreements are to be codified, we should start with the
> >> > 
> >> > most
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> abundantly clear agreements... We agree not to attempt to
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > repair
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> elevator, not to go on the roof (unless maintenancing an
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > antenna),
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > not
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> to go in the basement, not to go on the fire escape, not to
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > live at
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> Noisebridge. We also agree that projects kept on the hacker
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > shelves
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> the SW corner of the space or kept in personal lockers
> >> > 
> >> > belong
> >> > 
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> participants in the community and are not for general
> >> > 
> >> > purpose
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > hacking.
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >> <Add your own agreement>.
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> -Kevin
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > >> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > > > > > >> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > > > > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > 
> >> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > 
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Jessica R. Ross
> >> > > > > > jessica.r.ross at gmail.com
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > I'm very open to collaborating on a revised Draft of this
> >> > 
> >> > document.
> >> > 
> >> > > > >  Please read the meeting notes or try to understand what I wrote
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > before
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > jumping in with critique. Polarization, accusation, and
> >> > 
> >> > hyperbole
> >> > 
> >> > > > are not
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > effective.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > For context...
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > At every prior meeting I said that I had concerns with the house
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > rules
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > proposal. Often, the agenda was too full of bannings to have
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > substantive
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > discussion of my concerns. I was shocked to arrive late and hear
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > consensus
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > was reached without having had opportunity for discussion. The
> >> > 
> >> > group
> >> > 
> >> > > > agreed
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > I was previously misunderstood, the proposal is not urgent, and
> >> > 
> >> > that
> >> > 
> >> > > > more
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > > discussion is needed.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > Hence more discussion and reaching out to the community.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> >> > > > > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> >> > > > > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >> > > 
> >> > > I'm ideologically opposed to criminalizing sleep at Noisebride. Many
> >> > > organizations understand the benefits of rest, and allow sleep to
> >> > 
> >> > occur
> >> > 
> >> > > alongside work/hacking/creating.
> >> > > 
> >> > > I recognize Noisebridge has problems Many have identified sleep as
> >> > 
> >> > one. I
> >> > 
> >> > > maintain its a symptom and not a root problem. However, I'm open to
> >> > > experiments. We tried HackerStackers... If folks want to try
> >> > 
> >> > prohibition, I
> >> > 
> >> > > won't stand in the way.
> >> > 
> >> > --
> >> > Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> >> 
> >> Greg,
> >> Do you want to collaborate? Do you like the existing wording on the
> >> prohibition of sleep at Noisebridge?
> >> 
> >> Left to my own devices I would first codify existing agreements, then add
> >> new agreements. This pattern allows us to test additional agreements
> >> independently.
> >> 
> >> -Kevin
> > 
> > --
> > Let's stay in touch.  Greg
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
> > Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
> > https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
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