[Noisebridge-discuss] why i am complaining

Naomi Most pnaomi at gmail.com
Thu May 8 19:41:35 UTC 2014


Then you should also know that Membership / Associate Membership has
gone back to the structure it was agreed to be last year, when you
were there to help create that policy.

You're speaking Truth, Jake, at a time when it can be heard.

Sometimes individuals in a different time and place (e.g. the times
you're describing from last year) respond differently in different
circumstances.  Give those people another chance.

--Naomi


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
> Thanks Naomi.
>
> I understand that Tom is out of the picture now, but i am still turned off
> by the responses I got from other people when i complained about him, before
> it was cool to complain about Tom if you know what i mean.
>
> As for the proposal I made, it is still out there and if someone other than
> me thinks it's a good idea they are welcome to introduce it, although there
> is so much confusion now about the members/associate members policies that I
> really don't even know if it would merge.
>
>
> -jake
>
> On Thu, 8 May 2014, Naomi Most wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Jake, that was helpful.
>>
>> It should be known that Tom has been barred from coming to Noisebridge
>> until he can be present at a meeting to discuss a proposal to revoke
>> his Membership.
>>
>> Chief among the grievances of the community about Tom is his pattern
>> of abuse of Consensus.
>>
>> --Naomi
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> the reason that you hear me complain, or johny complain, or other people
>>> complain without doing anything is this:
>>>
>>> no one person is capable of making the broad and systematic changes to
>>> noisebridge that are necessary to turn it around in the other direction.
>>>
>>> so when people enumerate problems to the list, the implication should be
>>> that they are seeking cooperation to make large changes.
>>>
>>> my experience with noisebridge is that when i do that, people take turns
>>> writing snarky "responses" to my complaints and don't address the
>>> problems
>>> at all.  Or they minimize the problem while boasting about their special
>>> way
>>> of being unaffected by them.  In short, people do the opposite of
>>> offering
>>> their support in making requested improvements.
>>>
>>> For a while i was coming to meetings and trying to introduce carefully
>>> crafted changes to noisebridge that I thought would improve things.  I
>>> introduced associate membership so that we could discern between
>>> non-Members
>>> who wanted to be part of nb and non-Members who just wanted to take
>>> advantage of a place without rules or boundaries.
>>>
>>> At some point one of my suggestions got implemented differently than I
>>> had
>>> envisioned, since I hadn't been at the meeting and honestly didn't expect
>>> it
>>> to get screwed up the way it did, but it did.
>>>
>>> So I wrote a proposal to repair the wording to the "noisebridge is only
>>> for
>>> members and associate members" thing and sent it to the list repeatedly
>>> over
>>> many weeks, asking for concerns or suggestions from everyone.  No one had
>>> any problems with it, which was unsurprising because it was a carefully
>>> written proposal with nothing contraversial in it.
>>>
>>> At the meeting, Tom blocked it.  I asked why and he refused to engage in
>>> discussions.  I asked him to meet with me at the time and place of his
>>> choosing to discuss his blocking and he stalled and ignored my emails.
>>>
>>> Eventually I wrote a complaint to the list.  The flood of abusive
>>> responses
>>> to my complaint was the only result, with the exception of a couple of
>>> threads by good people pointing out "actually, blocking a consensus item
>>> DOES deserve explanation... what kind of process are you people running
>>> over
>>> there?"
>>>
>>> You should be glad that people are "complaining-without-doing" when
>>> problems
>>> are too big to solve alone, because the alternative is giving up.
>>>
>>> -jake
>>>
>>> On Thu, 8 May 2014, Naomi Most wrote:
>>>
>>>> I admit to being fairly annoyed at Johny's post (and yours, a little).
>>>> Part of that comes from having taken too much modafinil this morning.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I am annoyed is that there's a pattern of
>>>> complaining-without-doing that I would like to break.
>>>>
>>>> Jake, I know you have been frustrated in the past.  Positive changes
>>>> are occurring in the Noisebridge culture that might enable you be
>>>> effective in improving the space, should you feel you would like to
>>>> participate.
>>>>
>>>> --Naomi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> sorry, i didn't notice that you were opening other threads and thought
>>>>> that
>>>>> this was all you had to say about johny's complaints.
>>>>>
>>>>> i still feel that there needs to be much better treatment of people
>>>>> enumerating problems than there is, including your reception of johny's
>>>>> post.  Being supportive of one another when we are trying to make
>>>>> improvements is essential.  The alternative, what is happening, is that
>>>>> people don't want to help because they just get yelled at.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -jake
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 8 May 2014, Naomi Most wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I commented that the majority of his grievances came down to his
>>>>>> personal opinions of a handful of people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have now devoted several new email threads TO Johny's complaints, in
>>>>>> what I hope is a very constructive manner.  I'd say that's the polar
>>>>>> opposite of dismissing someone's concerns irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Jake <jake at spaz.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Naomi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> when I read Johny's post I was glad that someone else was noticing
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> that I consider problems.  Yes some of the things on the list might
>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>> less important than others, depending on who is reading them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe that when a person presents a list of complaints like this,
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than telling the person that their grievances are invalid because you
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> agree with some of them, we should try to talk about the problems we
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> agree on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main reason I can't continue trying to help noisebridge is
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> I complained about things, i was attacked and my complaints mocked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you just told johny his list of concerns was irrelavent, in one
>>>>>>> sentence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -jake
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 8 May 2014, Naomi Most wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Johny,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The majority of those bulletpoints are your personal opinions about
>>>>>>>> other people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --Naomi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 12:47 AM, Johny Radio <johnyradio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>>> From: "Naomi Most" <pnaomi at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am asking because I want to see if/how Jake's perspective has
>>>>>>>>>> changed,
>>>>>>>>>> and whether he's aware of what's already changed in a direction
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> might like.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Naomi, i'd sure like to know what's changed for the better:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Tonight i went to NB to look for some mosfets. There were piles
>>>>>>>>> upon
>>>>>>>>> piles
>>>>>>>>> of garbage mixed with useful parts all over the floor, worst i've
>>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>> it (some dedicated Members cleaned and organized not long ago-- all
>>>>>>>>> gone
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> crap).
>>>>>>>>> -A non-member has, for a couple weeks or longer, been
>>>>>>>>> systematically
>>>>>>>>> digging
>>>>>>>>> through EVERYTHING in the Member stacks, taking what he wants, and
>>>>>>>>> leaving
>>>>>>>>> the rest all over the floor of the member stacks. It's now a
>>>>>>>>> complete
>>>>>>>>> disaster in there.
>>>>>>>>> -All the component storage cleanup and organizing i did over
>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>> weeks
>>>>>>>>> has also gone to crap. Useful stuff mixed with random junk all over
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> floor, parts completely disorganized.
>>>>>>>>> -A HACKER came to solder some cables (poor fool). He searched for
>>>>>>>>> solder
>>>>>>>>> amidst the piles of garbage for half an hour and, hey, found a
>>>>>>>>> couple
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> inches!
>>>>>>>>> -I met a woman who informed me that she could not get a bed at a
>>>>>>>>> shelter,
>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>> she came to Noisebridge.
>>>>>>>>> -Various other non-hacking non-members were hanging out.
>>>>>>>>> -I heard there's a new Kitchen Working Group, peopled by
>>>>>>>>> non-hacking,
>>>>>>>>> non-member kitchen-users (appointed, Vee said, by Gregory Dillon).
>>>>>>>>> Gregory,
>>>>>>>>> i suggest you also create a group called "Sleeping Taskforce"-- you
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> appoint some squatters.
>>>>>>>>> -Vee said "people who use the kitchen have laptops-- isn't that
>>>>>>>>> hacking?"
>>>>>>>>> -I watched as a Member stretched an electric extension cord across
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> walkway
>>>>>>>>> (I guess he missed the email about not doing that).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So please tell us Naomi, where is the positive change you
>>>>>>>>> mentioned.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>>> see it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JAKE, is this change in the direction you'd like? Ready to come
>>>>>>>>> back??
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>>>
>>>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Naomi Theora Most
>>>> naomi at nthmost.com
>>>> +1-415-728-7490
>>>>
>>>> skype: nthmost
>>>>
>>>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Naomi Theora Most
>> naomi at nthmost.com
>> +1-415-728-7490
>>
>> skype: nthmost
>>
>> http://twitter.com/nthmost
>>
>



-- 
Naomi Theora Most
naomi at nthmost.com
+1-415-728-7490

skype: nthmost

http://twitter.com/nthmost


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