[Noisebridge-discuss] mongodb and noisebridge

Bryan Reinero breinero at gmail.com
Thu Jul 23 21:13:23 UTC 2015


Hey Folks, don't want interrupt the discussion but I wanted to say that I really appreciate the attention you've committed to this conversation. Just as it is important to maintian the physical space, it is equally important to maintain Noisebridge's cultural space too :). I've been invovled in other volunteer collectives, and we often have group converstations just like this. Hopefully this conversation is additionally valuable in establishing a well thought out protocol for interfacing with other companies in the future. 

 I’ll not be able to attend next Tuesday's meeting, but I want to remain open and available to any questions you may have. Ping me if i can provide you with any clarification I may provide.

-Bry

> On Jul 23, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Naomi Most <naomi at nthmost.com> wrote:
> 
> Strangely I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.  
> 
> I think this discussion itself proves that if MongoDB came into Noisebridge, paying for the time and the space, that we would do a very good job mitigating the corporate influence by asserting our cultural values regularly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Naomi
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best at pricing -- $500 a month is totally fine with me!
> 
> I also want to be clear that I have no intention of putting a consensus block or anything of the like on Bryan or anyone.  I just want this issue discussed in the community before something similar next time as well. 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Harry Moreno <morenoh149 at gmail.com <mailto:morenoh149 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> so for 1 meetup per week this would be $2000/month?
> 
> I tried calculating something referencing http://www.evenues.com/Meeting-Spaces/San%20Francisco/California/?id=106f69d5-42c4-42fa-b797-2d8ef6ce92cf <http://www.evenues.com/Meeting-Spaces/San%20Francisco/California/?id=106f69d5-42c4-42fa-b797-2d8ef6ce92cf> at $50/hour.
> 
> For 4 2-hour sessions per month that's $500/month. Keeping in mind they used to host these at a coffeeshop for free http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-MongoDB-User-Group/events/206109962/ <http://www.meetup.com/San-Francisco-MongoDB-User-Group/events/206109962/>
> 
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> This is a genuine discussion, which IMHO shouldn't be offlist.  If someone came and wanted to give mongodb tutorials, I clearly wouldn't mind.  However, the fact that it is an employee of mongodb sets a different bar for me -- an employee using nb resources for further corporate development (no matter how chic it seems to have nosql + neuroscience discussions).  
> 
> And Jehan, my rent-seeking *is* blatant intentionally because we are otherwise a starving community space.  A community space is not co-working space, it's not an incubator. I put my sweat and money into these spaces in order to give people access to technology production they otherwise would not have.  Which is why I bring up gentrification:  having office hours empowers mongodb and the folks that already are connected enough to understand what nosql is and why they may want to use it.  My further question is:  what would mongodb be doing to reach out to folks in our community that aren't so connected and empowered?  
> 
> If we let this happen, then why not host corporate apple hackathons for free in our space?  Why draw the line at open source?  Why not let popular apple host closed source API workshops in our space for free?  I suspect that for some people on this list that would be perfectly fine.  
> 
> Also this is a fine line --  I *do * support mutual aid of up and coming entrepreneurs. I do support giving commercial space to folks inside our community access to develop and bring their stuff to market.  I have no problems with Mitch selling his electronics at our space -- but on the same token Mitch spends hours and hours reaching out to the very poor and disconnected teaching valuable skills.  There is a big difference.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Jehan Tremback <jehan.tremback at gmail.com <mailto:jehan.tremback at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'm not incredibly active at Noisebridge, so take my commentary as just commentary, but let's think of two scenarios:
> 
> 1. People can come to Noisebridge and host QnA's about technical topics. If they are not disruptive, no problem.
> 
> or
> 
> 2. People are judged ad-hoc for perceived political alignment (not even actual political positions!), and then pressured to "donate" if their character is judged to not be radical enough.
> 
> I'd like to see anyone who wants to teach people about open source code to feel free to do that at Noisebridge without being judged against some activist litmus test. Also, isn't it even more compromising of Noisebridge's values to become some sort of for-charge seminar space? The combination of radical rhetoric and rent-seeking is rather blatant, and somewhat offputting.
> 
> -Jehan
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> In the interest of not blocking anyone and getting more expedited, I've taken this offlist.  If I come across as abrasive, I apologize - I know that Bryan is a great person doing very cool things, and indeed I hope to participate in the MongoDB sessions myself... But a corporation is a corporation is a profit extracting at all costs feelingless machine and it needs to be dealt with accordingly. 
> 
> When thinking about an appropriate donation, I'm using a formula something like:
>       cost per square foot  * marketing/bizdev cost modifier * bizdev/marketing budget modifier * hr/recruiting costs modifier * noisebridge premium 
> 
> We are a centrally located hackerspace attracting some of the best talent in the bay and the world.  
> 
> I'll do some research and plug some initial numbers in there tomorrow (unless anyone else has a starting point) so bryan can get everything calendared in ASAP.
> 
> I've also gone ahead and cc'ed mitch and naomi,  in case they have input :)  
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I'll see you next tuesday!
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Ronald Cotoni <setient at gmail.com <mailto:setient at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Praveen, first of all hi!  Second, lets take this to a meeting or something.  This is not the place for this type of discussion.  This is also pretty drama filled right now and is basically a sore spot.  Noise bridge is ultimately a maker space and a hacker space.  It is used to create amazing things with software, hardware or even non technical things.  Yes, there are some politics discussed at noise bridge and we welcome all to have rational discussions about all topics, as long as you respect those around you and treat them with excellence.   Though that happens a lot, that is clearly not our primary focus of making cool things and helping people learn to make cool things.  
> 
> Let's end this discussion and have both you and Bryan come either this week (short notice for me and most likely others) or next week and discuss this.  We could also plan a time that is not a Tuesday meeting so that we do not fill the meeting with this one subject if there is enough interest.  Do you feel like organizing that Praveen since you seem to have a lot of vested interest in this particular subject?  I can help facilitate.  
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Jeffrey Carl Faden <jeffreyatw at gmail.com <mailto:jeffreyatw at gmail.com>> wrote:
> I’m pretty sure he would. It’s not that intense, really.
> 
> Jeffrey
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:54 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com <mailto:2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Praveen I would highly encourage you to make these statements face to face instead of over the internet.  It's really draining and I would be very surprised if you felt it was appropriate to speak to someone like that in person.
> 
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:49 PM, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> The issues of giving corporate free passes is centrally linked to very real gentrification issues, inside and outside noisebridge.
> 
> Inside noisebridge:
>     - we still don't have disabled or elderly accessible environments even after years of being here.  Our members with accessibility issues often have to go to great struggles to figure out if they can be at the space.
>      - we are still a monolingual environment, with our wiki being english only inside a strong bilingual community
> 
> The list can go on about noisebridge and the immediate neighborhood, like providing mesh access to the low income in the community.
> 
> Having cash to do such things, beyond worrying about basic rent is of immense value.
> 
> And yet we have actors like Jehan privileging free access to a cash heavy corporation because they use the AGPL in their product.  It's very admirable that a company should do such a thing, but by that logic would you invite Oracle in to give demos because Mysql is open source?  Preposterous.  
> 
> Noisebridge is not broken.  Our job is not to attract wealth people from far away places like palo alto.  We have value inside our own communities, in Noisebridge, in the Mission, that we have to develop and emerge to be next cutting edge.  
> 
> In so far as politics at noisebridge -- I'm sorry but NB is an explicitly political space. We host and talk about issues that are of importance to hackers that include digital rights, free internet, and yes gentrification and tech class divide in urban areas like the mission district.  If you feel differently, I welcome you to shut down Techno Activism Tuesdays and the many other projects we've hosted here.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 10:55 PM, 2011PIguppy2011 <2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com <mailto:2011PIguppy2011 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> As far as I am concerned, free office hours are just that. I don't see the point in injecting SF city politics / hot button issues into this and I see it as blatant trolling. Noisebridge is not a political nonprofit.
> 
> It would be great to have more responsible people in the space at a regular time using it to hack on tech. He said it was open office hours for whoever.
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, July 20, 2015, Praveen Sinha <dmhomee at gmail.com <mailto:dmhomee at gmail.com>> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Garrett Smith <dhtmlkitchen at gmail.com <>> wrote:
> > We usually announce on Twitter that we’ll be available at the venue and
> > typically expect about 10 to 12 people to drop in on average. Anyone with
> > questions about MongoDB are welcome. I’d like to start the first "office
> > hours” Thursday the 23rd, from 4-6 PM.  Do you feel that Noisebridge is an
> > appropriate please to host these small meetups?
> >
> 
> I think that it's doocratic in the spirit of Noisebridge. You'll need
> to chec the schedule for room availability of Turing or Church before
> booking your room by editing the wiki.
> 
> I vehemently disagree  -- MongoDB is a for profit company that would otherwise pay top dollar to have real estate to run where it can get mindshare for other engineers.   While I support noisebridge to support our own community members to launch their for profit projects (for example, mitch altman pitching his electronics), it's frankly because of companies like MongoDB getting a free ride from the city that not only is Noisebridge's rent going up, but everyone in the neighborhood getting kicked out as well.
> 
> Noisebridge it  /community/ space - so I really have ask, what concrete value does MongoDB add to this community?   Why not give Microsoft or Apple free space to develop mindshare in our community?  
> 
> We may need cash, and once again our non-profit status does not allow us to have in-kind donations.  But, if you really want to play ball with these companies, we better make our benefit very tangible and make it a lot.  MongoDB would otherwise pay thousands if not tens of thousands to have a deal somewhere else in the city.  We are a premium spot for it, and we should make it such that even the poorest and most unconnected of us are able to benefit from it.
> 
> 
> -- 
> (Sent from cellphone)
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> -- 
> Ronald Cotoni
> Systems Engineer
> 
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> -- 
> Naomi Theora Most
> naomi at nthmost.com <mailto:naomi at nthmost.com>
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