[Noisebridge-discuss] Noisebridge Statement on Jacob Appelbaum

robb sf99er at gmail.com
Mon Jun 13 19:29:10 UTC 2016


On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 12:17 PM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:

> OMG......
>
>
> THE VICTIMS OWE YOU NOTHING. YOU DO NOT DESERVE PROOF.
>

 angry screaming followed by

>
> Just, PLEASE, assume
>

a polite demand is not helpful to critical thinking

>
> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Andrey Fedorov <me at anfedorov.com> wrote:
>
>> Wow, that got out of hand fast. Views "from the outside" are actually
>> very important here, precisely because emotion is clearly trumping reason
>> (e.g. in VonGuard's posts). Whether genuine or a cheap rhetorical tactic,
>> it isn't helping anyone towards the truth of the matter.
>>
>> Aside from an uncorroborated anonymous account submitted to that site,
>> has anyone actually accused Jacob of raping them? Forest's account seems to
>> me a genuine description of Jacob as not exactly a boy scout, but showing
>> healthy shame and being apologetic when confronted about transgressions.
>> This is not the person described in some of the more harrowing accounts.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:06 AM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry to unload on just you, but really, I was upset at the whole
>>> thread.
>>>
>>> Sexual assault and misconduct accusations should be handled in private.
>>> The MOMENT people start demanding a rape victim be open with the public
>>> about the rape is the moment rape victims are silenced.
>>>
>>> I get it. Nerds want to be even handed, just, and never want to exclude
>>> people.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, this instinct FREQUENTLY results in one person being
>>> allowed to repeatedly offend and drive others away. Others who are too
>>> afraid to write anonymous testimonials.
>>>
>>> So, for everyone else who has issues with this: contact the board and
>>> ask them the questions. This is not a subject for open debate. If you want
>>> to come in on the list and say "Hey, did you think this through?" Just
>>> stop. It's not appropriate. Your drive-by ethics check is not needed, and
>>> only serves to add more voices to the already deafening chorus of people
>>> now thinking Jacob is the victim.
>>>
>>> How fucked up is that? People who are, literally, braver than
>>> Noisebridge has been in the past, coming forward to stop this repeated
>>> abuse, and the first thing that happens is they are seen as the attackers,
>>> and Jacob, the victim.
>>>
>>> Yeah, the site they built is ham-fisted, but please, don't add to the
>>> chorus of people painting Jacob as the victim here. Jacob specializes in
>>> living in the gray area where his victims are made to seem unstable and
>>> unreliable, and he thrives on that fact.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:01 AM, robb <sf99er at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> thx Lesley, that's exactly what i was looking for.
>>>>
>>>> my original comment was based on what i gleaned from this/these
>>>> thread(s).
>>>>
>>>> i have been the victim of false accusations (theft) by a mob of people
>>>> i thought were my comrades who brought only the conclusion that i stole $
>>>> w/o any evidence or facts.
>>>> it is very damaging as one can't defend oneself against mere
>>>> conclusions. i apologize if my bad experience has made me hyperobjective. i
>>>> guess it still affects me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 10:45 AM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Your response is, in fact, victim shaming. You come in and IMMEDIATELY
>>>>> assume they're lying, and ask for an anonymous account of what happened.
>>>>> There are a lot out there already, so I can ONLY assume you want more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Victim shaming isn't about telling someone they're lying to their
>>>>> face. It's about coming to the group and saying "Everyone sure in here?"
>>>>> like some kinda fucked up dad checking in on the uncle molesting children
>>>>> in the basement. "You sure he was molesting you? Let's sit down and have
>>>>> you write an essay about how he molested you because you're a child and I
>>>>> cannot take your word for it."
>>>>>
>>>>> So, yeah, coming around and saying "I want a statement, I want proof,
>>>>> I want to know exactly how he raped this person" is, in fact, victim
>>>>> shaming.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you didn't know this. Seems few people do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 10:23 AM, robb <sf99er at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 8:45 AM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I don't give a rats ass what this "looks like from the
>>>>>>> outside."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that's obvious
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If one more fucking person DEMANDS that the victims come forward
>>>>>>> with evidence and photos and videos and rape kits, I'm gonna blow my
>>>>>>> fucking stack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i did not demand any physical evidence
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Demanding evidence is NOT what you do in these cases.  Instead, you
>>>>>>> quietly discuss, find the evidence and statements needed quietly, AND NOT
>>>>>>> IN PUBLIC, so as not to shame and humiliate the victims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> again, i did not demand physical evidence. i merely suggested an
>>>>>> anonymous account that demonstrates Jake's culpability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think Noisebridge did wrong, you don't trust Noisebridge.
>>>>>>> This decision was NOT made lightly, and as it CLEARLY states in the
>>>>>>> statement, Jake was a problem at Noisebridge BEFORE this began.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i don't think nb did *wrong *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You want facts? You go get raped by him then come back here and
>>>>>>> listen to everyone tell you you're lying. Then try to cough up some "facts."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an inherently messy situation, and you know what? Reminding
>>>>>>> us all of that fact and questioning the victims is NOT HELPING. We know.
>>>>>>> Noisebridge knows. Noisebridge has WAY more experience with Jake than most
>>>>>>> people. Either trust that Noisebridge did right, or find a hackerspace
>>>>>>> where Jake is allowed in the door, if it matters that much to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> my concern for jake, personally, is nil. i do care about fairness &
>>>>>> equity alot though
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We're fucking done with him. Go plead his case and cast aspersions
>>>>>>> on the victims elsewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you are seriously delusional if you think i'm pleading his case. my
>>>>>> concern is for nb. this is a public list. libel is a real.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It makes me physically ill to see more people supporting Jake than
>>>>>>> the victims. I don't care how ham-fisted their reports sound. Assuming
>>>>>>> multiple ladies and men are lying and Noisebridge is just being reactionary
>>>>>>> is just ludicrous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i am not supporting jake
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For all these accusations to be right ONLY ONE THING MUST BE TRUE:
>>>>>>> Jacob has to be a bad guy. Terrible to believe, I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For all the accusations to be wrong, and for all these orgs to to
>>>>>>> toss Jacob out improperly, then everyone of the orgs and every one of
>>>>>>> Jacobs accusers has to be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> clearly, i'm lacking some facts here
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explain to me again how it makes sense to shame the victims and
>>>>>>> everyone else involved and run to the defense of a single, powerful
>>>>>>> individual accused of shaming victims and threatening them. Please explain
>>>>>>> to me how the one accused of making these victims feel afraid and ashamed
>>>>>>> needs your help, rather than the victims needing your help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i'm not trying to defend anyone but nb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, continue discussing this on the email list and informing all
>>>>>>> of us at Noisebridge that we made a hasty decisions you don't like,
>>>>>>> assuming wee're all just reactionaries and making this shit up. Assume we
>>>>>>> don't know Jacob better than you. Please, continue to assume we don't have
>>>>>>> dozens of other cases where Jacob hurt members of the Noisebridge community
>>>>>>> in the past. Please assume we're just being vengeful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> YOU are reactionary, evidenced by your response to my post
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, continue to victim shame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> nice conclusion...now where exactly in my post did i shame any
>>>>>> victims?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> again,
>>>>>> the allegations against jake are extremely serious accusations.
>>>>>> it is imperative to handle this matter responsibly for all the
>>>>>> parties involved - including nb & tor project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i wish you all well
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 8:45 AM, VonGuard <vonguard at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I don't give a rats ass what this "looks like from the
>>>>>>> outside."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If one more fucking person DEMANDS that the victims come forward
>>>>>>> with evidence and photos and videos and rape kits, I'm gonna blow my
>>>>>>> fucking stack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Demanding evidence is NOT what you do in these cases.  Instead, you
>>>>>>> quietly discuss, find the evidence and statements needed quietly, AND NOT
>>>>>>> IN PUBLIC, so as not to shame and humiliate the victims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you think Noisebridge did wrong, you don't trust Noisebridge.
>>>>>>> This decision was NOT made lightly, and as it CLEARLY states in the
>>>>>>> statement, Jake was a problem at Noisebridge BEFORE this began.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You want facts? You go get raped by him then come back here and
>>>>>>> listen to everyone tell you you're lying. Then try to cough up some "facts."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an inherently messy situation, and you know what? Reminding
>>>>>>> us all of that fact and questioning the victims is NOT HELPING. We know.
>>>>>>> Noisebridge knows. Noisebridge has WAY more experience with Jake than most
>>>>>>> people. Either trust that Noisebridge did right, or find a hackerspace
>>>>>>> where Jake is allowed in the door, if it matters that much to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We're fucking done with him. Go plead his case and cast aspersions
>>>>>>> on the victims elsewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It makes me physically ill to see more people supporting Jake than
>>>>>>> the victims. I don't care how ham-fisted their reports sound. Assuming
>>>>>>> multiple ladies and men are lying and Noisebridge is just being reactionary
>>>>>>> is just ludicrous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For all these accusations to be right ONLY ONE THING MUST BE TRUE:
>>>>>>> Jacob has to be a bad guy. Terrible to believe, I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For all the accusations to be wrong, and for all these orgs to to
>>>>>>> toss Jacob out improperly, then everyone of the orgs and every one of
>>>>>>> Jacobs accusers has to be wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Explain to me again how it makes sense to shame the victims and
>>>>>>> everyone else involved and run to the defense of a single, powerful
>>>>>>> individual accused of shaming victims and threatening them. Please explain
>>>>>>> to me how the one accused of making these victims feel afraid and ashamed
>>>>>>> needs your help, rather than the victims needing your help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, continue discussing this on the email list and informing all
>>>>>>> of us at Noisebridge that we made a hasty decisions you don't like,
>>>>>>> assuming wee're all just reactionaries and making this shit up. Assume we
>>>>>>> don't know Jacob better than you. Please, continue to assume we don't have
>>>>>>> dozens of other cases where Jacob hurt members of the Noisebridge community
>>>>>>> in the past. Please assume we're just being vengeful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please, continue to victim shame.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 8:33 AM, robb <sf99er at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> fwiw, from the outside, this looks like a smear campaign.
>>>>>>>> perhaps an account of the facts - changing the names to protect the
>>>>>>>> innocent - could be posted somewhere.
>>>>>>>> repeated statements of conclusions w/o facts are not convincing &
>>>>>>>> do more to raise suspicions about an unaccountable process than they do
>>>>>>>> about Appelbaum's conduct.
>>>>>>>> the allegations against jake are extremely serious accusations.
>>>>>>>> it is imperative to handle this matter responsibly for all the
>>>>>>>> parties involved - including nb & tor project.
>>>>>>>> ~r
>>>>>>>> <https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>>>>>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Noisebridge-discuss mailing list
>>> Noisebridge-discuss at lists.noisebridge.net
>>> https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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