Pardon my ignorance, but it was my understanding that heat pumps worked by running coils underground and regulating temperature that way.  I don&#39;t see how that could possibly work in the city.<br><br>I&#39;m a fan of propane heaters.  Propane burns more cleanly than any other combustibles.  It&#39;s so clean that you don&#39;t need to vent it (so long as it&#39;s getting plenty of oxygen), which makes it that much more efficient.  It&#39;s very easy to control a propane unit, as most are thermostatically controlled.  Also, there are a fair number of us about the place who have a good working knowledge of propane.<br>
<br>There are also a lot of options for propane heaters as well, although few are recommended to heat more than about 500 sq. ft.  I figure that we might get by with one or two if we focus on key areas and do a lot with insulation.  Also, an additional advantage of propane is that when we run out because we forgot to fill up the tank at the appropriate time, it&#39;s really easy to come by.<br>
<br>Christie<br clear="all">--- <br>Why I take the road less traveled?  Oh, that&#39;s easy.  I&#39;m claustrophobic.<br>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Michael Wright <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:mike@smallip.com">mike@smallip.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;">How about a portable Heat-Pump unit?<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.air-n-water.com/product/LX-140.html?utm_source=googlebase&amp;utm_medium=comparisonshopping" target="_blank">http://www.air-n-water.com/product/LX-140.html?utm_source=googlebase&amp;utm_medium=comparisonshopping</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>My parents have been using a window mount unit at their place in the central valley for like 10 years (they did opt to add a pellet stove as well though).</div><div><br></div><div>These work well when the outside air isn&#39;t so cold as to make the &quot;outside air&quot; coil develop ice.  Luckily SF doesn&#39;t get that cold.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The upside is it&#39;s more efficient than regular electric heat.</div><div>Regular wall plug electric heater (converts 100% of electricity to heat) : </div><div><br></div><div>1500 watts X 3.41 Watts/BTU/Hr = 5115 BTU/Hr</div>
<div><br></div><div>Heat Pump Unit:</div><div><li>Heating Capacity:12,000 BTU/Hr
</li><li>Power Consumption: Heating- 1160 W</li><div><br></div><div>That looks like about 200% of the heating for about 77% of the electricity.  In terms of total heating capacity it would be equivelent to 2 1500 Watt wall plug heaters costing about $35 each (less if one accepts the loud ones, more if one wants the spiffy quartz radiant ones).</div>
</div><div><br></div><div>The downside is that it needs access to a window, isn&#39;t quiet, and cost $500 bucks.</div><div><br></div><div>On other notes, any kind of convection heater (the oil filled radiator ones) will be a poor choice because they act slow and heat _all_ the air in a room, which is actually a lot more air than we want heated (because we technically have only one room).</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>mike</div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:25 PM, Vlad Spears wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>It&#39;s not random fire from the installation I would be concerned  <br>
about.  That should be fine.  I think the &quot;random fire in noisebridge&quot;  <br>might go something like this:<br><br>&quot;It&#39;s pretty warm here by the stove, but not all the way over by the  <br>far side where I want to sit.&quot;<br>
<br>&quot;I know!  Let&#39;s build a supplementary stove from cpu casings lined  <br>with tinfoil and crushed kitchen tile, and move some of the fire over  <br>there with an old hard drive platter.&quot;<br><br>&quot;Brilliant!  If this works out, we can put it on top of the dark room!&quot;<br>
<br>Vlad<br><br><br><br><br>On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Martin Bogomolni wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">There&#39;s nothing &quot;random&quot; about the installation of a pellet burning<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
stove.  Installing one in San Francisco requires permits, proper<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ventilation and ductwork installed by qualified contractors, etc.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">There are also regular &quot;burn bans&quot; in San Francisco to preserve air<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">quality, usually on the coldest days of the year.  So just when you<br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">want to burn the most, you can&#39;t.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Six of one, half a dozen of the other, it&#39;s pretty economical, but a<br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">pain in the butt to install one.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-Martin<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Shannon Lee &lt;<a href="mailto:shannon@scatter.com" target="_blank">shannon@scatter.com</a>&gt;  <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
Hey,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">There was some discussion about having propane heat, specifically  <br>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">so that we<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">can get people who want heat to fund heat on a very atomic level.   <br>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">We have<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">been leaning against it because of fire hazards; specifically, we  <br>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">have an<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">extensive sprinkler system, so even a small fire problem can turn  <br>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">into a<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">huge water problem.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I just see a huge potential problem with random fire in noisebridge.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--S<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Kevin Warnock &lt;<a href="mailto:kevin@warnock.com" target="_blank">kevin@warnock.com</a>&gt;  <br>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This is my first post to this discussion group. I&#39;m not a member,  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">but I&#39;ve<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">visited about a dozen times so far.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I have been reading about the electric bill issues. I have a watt- <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">hour<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">meter I could let the Noisebridge borrow for a while, so the  <br></blockquote>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">lights could be<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
tested. The meter will calculate the price to run the lights as  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">well,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">because you can program the electricity rate into it.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
Separately, has any thought been given to installing a wood pellet  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">stove<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">for heat? The pellets are much less costly per btu than electric  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">heat<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">produced... I think half or a third as much. The pellets can be  <br></blockquote>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ordered by<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
the truck load, and since there is a freight elevator, they can be  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">brought<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">up to the third floor. Another advantage is that the rate per  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">pound goes<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">down when you buy more, not up like with electricity, at least  <br></blockquote>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">that&#39;s the<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
way residential electricity works... not sure about commercial  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">electricity.<br></blockquote></blockquote>
</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> A single pellet stove will heat the entire Noisebridge to a toasty<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">temperature if desired, and would only have to be filled every few  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">days I<br></blockquote>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">think. I think the flu can exit through a wall. I have no personal<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">experience with pellet stoves, but I do have experience with wood  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
stoves,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and they produce a LOT of heat... I would guess the heat of 20+  <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">electric<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">space heaters when they are burning a full load of wood.<br>
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The pellets are about 1/2&#39; long and a 1/4&quot; in diameter.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hope this helps.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Kevin Warnock<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(415) 661-5600<br></blockquote>
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Blog: <a href="http://KevinWarnock.com" target="_blank">KevinWarnock.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Website: <a href="http://gOffice.com" target="_blank">gOffice.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net" target="_blank">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
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<blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">--<br></blockquote>
</blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Shannon Lee<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(503) 539-3700<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">&quot;Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.&quot;<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">
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