I&#39;m not a huge proponent of TDD, but I went through a Ruby/Rails<br>course where the tests were written for us and we learned by writing<br>the code to satisfy them.  It actually turned out to be a lot of fun and<br>I learned a lot about Ruby in the process.  Though, it must, of course,<br>
be emphasized that test-passing code hardly constitutes feature<br>complete code.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 12:36 PM, jim <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
   I love the idea of little tests, maybe very small<br>
(fifteen-minute) feature-specific hands-on exercises<br>
and maybe some alternate problems that are meatier<br>
(I&#39;m not much into games; I like the idea of working<br>
with third-party modules).<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 12:22 -0700, Laura Khalil wrote:<br>
&gt; Hey Adit,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I took Dan&#39;s class when he just got on board (over a year ago) and<br>
&gt; really enjoyed it. I haven&#39;t been back in an age, but glad to hear<br>
&gt; you&#39;re thinking of keeping it alive.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One thing about Invent with Python: Al does a great job of giving an<br>
&gt; overview of Python. However, the book is written for kids, so<br>
&gt; everything is spelled out -- there&#39;s little to challenge the adult<br>
&gt; user to try and figure things out on his own. Personally, I find this<br>
&gt; critical to my understanding of a programming language.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I still think it&#39;s a great book, but may be better served if it could<br>
&gt; be supplemented with test questions/homework problems to apply what&#39;s<br>
&gt; learned.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Laura<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:36 AM, aditya bhargava<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:aditya@wefoundland.com">aditya@wefoundland.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;         Mark himself has said that Dive Into Python has become<br>
&gt;         outdated and he hasn&#39;t had time to update it. I was thinking<br>
&gt;         of going with Al&#39;s book for this class. Game dev looks like a<br>
&gt;         popular way of getting into coding and I think it&#39;s because of<br>
&gt;         the payoff at the end where you get to play your own game. I<br>
&gt;         looked over the book and it has the kind of projects that<br>
&gt;         people would sincerely enjoy working on. Overall I think we<br>
&gt;         will have the most fun with that book.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         I&#39;m picturing the class as a beginner&#39;s intro to programming,<br>
&gt;         with Python as the language of choice and Invent With Python<br>
&gt;         as the book of choice. I&#39;m down for running the classes. If<br>
&gt;         anyone else is interested in tag-teaming it, or if people want<br>
&gt;         to come and talk about specialized topics intermittently, I<br>
&gt;         would be down for that too.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         Daniel, I have questions for you about what you&#39;ve covered so<br>
&gt;         far...maybe we should take that conversation off the NB<br>
&gt;         mailing list?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         Adit<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:06 AM, jim &lt;<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;         wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;                 Many thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;                 On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 10:21 -0700, Daniel C.<br>
&gt;                 Silverstein wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; The examples in Dive Into Python are needlessly<br>
&gt;                 complex, and, in some<br>
&gt;                 &gt; cases, hopelessly outdated.  Also, like Think<br>
&gt;                 Python, I find the order<br>
&gt;                 &gt; of topics to be questionable.<br>
&gt;                 &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; Zed Shaw has an amusing and vitriolic rant re: Dive<br>
&gt;                 Into Python here:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; <a href="http://oppugn.us/posts/1272050135.html" target="_blank">http://oppugn.us/posts/1272050135.html</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; I don&#39;t necessarily agree with the entire rant, but<br>
&gt;                 I agree with the<br>
&gt;                 &gt; spirit of it.<br>
&gt;                 &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; (Dan)<br>
&gt;                 &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:15 AM, jim<br>
&gt;                 &lt;<a href="mailto:jim@systemateka.com">jim@systemateka.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt; I&#39;d love to know your take on Dive into Python.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt; Can you summarize?<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt; On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:30 -0700, Daniel C.<br>
&gt;                 Silverstein wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; I should point out that, over time, I became<br>
&gt;                 dissatisfied with Think<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; Python and Dive into Python.  I have not used<br>
&gt;                 Al&#39;s book so I can&#39;t<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; comment on it for good or bad.  More recently<br>
&gt;                 I&#39;ve been using the<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; Google Python Class curriculum available here:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 <a href="http://code.google.com/edu/languages/google-python-class/" target="_blank">http://code.google.com/edu/languages/google-python-class/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; (Dan)<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:13 AM, jim<br>
&gt;                 &lt;<a href="mailto:jim@well.com">jim@well.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   The Monday night Python class began as a<br>
&gt;                 SF-LUG Python<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; study group with Asheesh as mentor. Asheesh<br>
&gt;                 left the<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; region to set up <a href="http://openhatch.org" target="_blank">openhatch.org</a> and Daniel took<br>
&gt;                 over,<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; formalizing the meeting somewhat as a class<br>
&gt;                 with teacher,<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; and has hung in there for over a year.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   You can change the approach as you see fit.<br>
&gt;                 You might<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; take it on with someone else to share the<br>
&gt;                 mentoring or<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; lecture role or revert to study group format by<br>
&gt;                 reducing<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the role of the mentor or whatever. If you<br>
&gt;                 share the role,<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; you have the plus side of better continuity<br>
&gt;                 (each mentor<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; can take a break) but the with price of keeping<br>
&gt;                 in sync<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; with each other. There&#39;s at least one other NB<br>
&gt;                 member<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; who&#39;s got very good Python skills with an<br>
&gt;                 aptitude for<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; teaching.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   I believe there are two main aspects to<br>
&gt;                 support:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; * provide real-world, simple examples that<br>
&gt;                 demand that<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  attendees think out the problem solution in<br>
&gt;                 terms of<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  Python language features and Pythonic<br>
&gt;                 techniques.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; * accommodate stone beginners and also people<br>
&gt;                 who are<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  approaching intermediate levels. The Dive into<br>
&gt;                 Python<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  book is available on line and might work for<br>
&gt;                 both<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  groups. Al Sweigart&#39;s book, Invent Your Own<br>
&gt;                 Computer<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  Games with Python, is currently in the Turing<br>
&gt;                 room<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  and I believe has been used in the Python<br>
&gt;                 class; it&#39;s<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  certainly suitable for beginners and to some<br>
&gt;                 degree<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  to extending Python skills. The book that<br>
&gt;                 Asheesh<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  first chose as a basis for the group is Python<br>
&gt;                 for<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  Software Design: How to Think Like a Computer<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  Scientist and for a while, at least, Daniel<br>
&gt;                 stuck<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;  with it.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://diveintopython.org/" target="_blank">http://diveintopython.org/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://inventwithpython.com/" target="_blank">http://inventwithpython.com/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/" target="_blank">http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   (my opinions: ) I and a few others have had<br>
&gt;                 some<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; objections to parts of the Think Python text.<br>
&gt;                 I&#39;d not use<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; it in favor of Al&#39;s book and Dive into Python.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   I think sticking to the current schedule<br>
&gt;                 (Monday<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; evenings from 6:30 to 8:00) is important.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;   There are several Python groups in the bay<br>
&gt;                 area, and<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; one or more of their members might be willing<br>
&gt;                 to share<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the leader role or come in for an occasional<br>
&gt;                 lecture or<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; point you to examples at times you find your<br>
&gt;                 own well dry.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.pygamesf.org/" target="_blank">http://www.pygamesf.org/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.pywebsf.org/" target="_blank">http://www.pywebsf.org/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href="http://www.baypiggies.net/" target="_blank">http://www.baypiggies.net/</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 23:56 -0700, aditya<br>
&gt;                 bhargava wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I have a fair amount of experience in the<br>
&gt;                 language, but I&#39;ve never<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; been to one of these classes. What are they<br>
&gt;                 usually like? I can<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; volunteer to make up cheat sheets or talk<br>
&gt;                 about specialized topics if<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; there&#39;s interest in that. Off the top of my<br>
&gt;                 head, I could talk about:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; - scientific computing in Python<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; - working with Django<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; - writing modules in C++ using Boost::Python<br>
&gt;                 and other alternatives<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Adit<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Daniel C.<br>
&gt;                 Silverstein<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="mailto:cubes@ghosthacked.net">cubes@ghosthacked.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         Howdy,<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         Would anyone be interested in taking<br>
&gt;                 over teaching Python<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         class at<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         Noisebridge going forward?  Python is<br>
&gt;                 one of the longest<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         running<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         classes at Noisebridge, and I&#39;ve<br>
&gt;                 personally been teaching it<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         for the<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         better part of the last year and a<br>
&gt;                 half.  I think it may be<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         time for<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         me to move on to other pursuits, but<br>
&gt;                 I&#39;d rather not see the<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         class die.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;          Historically, Python class has been<br>
&gt;                 on Monday evenings from<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         6:30 to<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         8:00, but if anyone is interested in<br>
&gt;                 teaching it, I&#39;m sure<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         he/she<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         would be welcome to reschedule.<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         (Dan)<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;         Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href="http://wefoundland.com" target="_blank">wefoundland.com</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; Noisebridge-discuss mailing list<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net">Noisebridge-discuss@lists.noisebridge.net</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;                 <a href="https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss" target="_blank">https://www.noisebridge.net/mailman/listinfo/noisebridge-discuss</a><br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;                 &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         --<br>
&gt;         <a href="http://wefoundland.com" target="_blank">wefoundland.com</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;         _______________________________________________<br>
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