Meeting Notes 2011 09 20

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The 179th Meeting of Noisebridge

Note-taker: Snail

Moderator: Jorgen

Introduction and Names[edit]

  • What Noisebridge is about: "Noisebridge is a 501c3 nonprofit that provides a space for creation, collaboration, and learning about technology and creative projects. Noisebridge provides space, power tools, and infrastructure to help the public learn new skills and create cool things. Noisebridge continues to exist through and depends entirely on membership fees and donations. Our code of conduct is 'Be excellent to each other'."
  • Round of introductions: What's your name, what do you do, and if you are new, how did you hear about Noisebridge? Start with the moderator and go left.

Jorgen is the moderator

Rubin is a bad person

Snail and I have to type all of this

Christopher gets to relax during this

Elijah makerbotter

Eli just relax

Mark helping organize hackmeet

Greg also helping hackmeet; hardware hacker

Trinity here to learn


Owen relatively new; electronics

Kyle make games and likes making toys

Jake I hack things

Shannon resisting urge to say somethingembarrassing that Snail has to type - Rubin blocks

Leif just loggedin to IRC

Jason functional programming

Lillia I write code

John write code when I can pay attention; someone get me a beer please

Mike techowanderer

Dan looking for a really big button like you see in an industrial panel

Andrew loud

Warren primate and playing chess on a kindle

Michela always French

Daryl I'm confused by people's actions and their mission statement being different

Bullshit that Rubin wrote.

Shannon: we make decisions by arguing until everyone is sick of it.

Miloh: can someone who hasn't described it yet describe it?

Jake: consensus is when someone has an idea of something that should be done and others express whether they're ok or have concerns. If concerns, it's up to the group to see if the original proposal can be modified until all concerns can be met and the motion passed.

Miloh: Did anyone read my e-mail to the list about consensus?

Nobody reads the list.

Short Announcements[edit]

Cool new projects? Something you'd like people to know? Say now, but keep it short!

Rubin is working on a web site about hacker equality. A place on the internet for people to store resources about who you are and what you are and what you hack. Gender, preference, and OS equality. Encourages people to talk about these equality issues among their hackerspaces.

Trinity is looking to make her own DDR pad and game. Is anyone down to help me?

Miloh needs help organizing the new hackershelves & help keeping people off the members/groups shelves. He will cut a bitch.

Jake is missing a model M keyboard from his member shelf. It's not the model M keyboard in the server closet but looks just like it. If you've been unplugging or turning off wheelchair robot, let him know first & why. Otherwise, please don't.

Christopher is making a MAME cabinet, stand up arcade project.

???: Blue toshiba has a hard drive problem; going to fix it, but please don't hack/kill/throw in trash.

John wants fewer announcements.

Miloh mic on the table is for people listening who have trouble hearing.

Microphone lines are beer hazard.

Rubin: OCTOBER 1st hacker prom! Give a shout out. Come dressed in a shirt/tie or dress or polished robot chrome. Dates; robot dates; makeout makerbot rooms; chaperones to keep people from touching. PLEASE HELP, we need a DJ. Benefit for noisetor.

Arse Electronika @ noisebridge on October 2nd. Conference about innovation through pornovation. How porn technology has upgraded over the years. If you pass out during noiseprom, you may wake up to this.

Greg: HACKMEET! FLYERS!!! Radical tech conference that happened in 2007. This is the second one. Please come, It's about the blending of technology and protest; people who are hackers or people who are protesters or both are welcome to come. Emphasis on skill shares & uniting hackers with no protest experience with protesters with no hacking experience.

Dorkbot is a group in the bay area with event nights. Meeting on October 12th to plan. Donations from dorkbot night will go towards noisebridge.

New or Stale Events[edit]

Is there anything new happening at the space?

Is there anything that has stopped happening at the space?

  • Hacker Prom Oct 1st
  • Arse Elecetronkia Oct 2nd
  • Oct 15th - 16th
  • dorkbot Oct 21th

Financial Report[edit]

Funds in bank: ???

Financial report: Haven't heard from Kelly, but I think we are still good and still have a space.

People need help with to make it better. Contact mfb (maintained by name on the site page).

Membership Binder[edit]

  • Read off any names from the binder for the past month. Write a check on every open application.
  • Anyone up for joining this week (ie have four checks by their name + have two sponsors) should introduce themselves then leave the area in search of gifts (traditionally beer and a lime) for the rest of the group. The rest of the meeting should consense on whether they may join.

Where is the MEMBERSHIP BINDER game at 8:42, 42 minutes after the meeting was supposed to begin (so we got it done early tonight):

Tom L: has two signatures

Dan ?: ???

Andrew : Up for membership. Has atrocious handwriting, but is an awesome guy. Has two sponsors: Miloh and Danny.

Andrew's membership:

Rubin: He is a cool guy.

Elijha: He is awesome.

Miloh: He's helping build a rep rap and is planning his own designs.

Snail: He is an awesome makerbot person. All the makerbot people have vouched for him.

Shannon: Anything bad?

Rubin: He's a bit British; not sure if that is good for the space.

Jorgen: We have consensus.

Consensus items[edit]

Leif: "Noisebridge shall order and pay $1500 for t-shirts."

T-shirts pay for themselves, positive or neutral, and spread the word. Item to buy $1500 worth of t-shirts; Mitch will order them.

Leif: I feel like the consensus of nb is to spend $1500 on t-shirts. Does anybody disagree?


Daryl: How long did it take to sell the last 200? 6 months.

Consensus passed.

Side suggestions: Rubin wants to talk to Mitch about special, red, commemorative t-shirts. Talk to Rubin if you want to talk about it. Others suggest we should silkscreen shirts ourselves.

SuperQ: "Noisebridge shall pay the remaining funds required for an electricity measuring device up to $700, after a collection has been made."

Noisebridge shall pay the remaining funds required for an electricity measuring device up to $700, after a collection has been made.

Waiting for SuperQ to be here to discuss.

To bar Jay from entering the space and participating in the community. (proposed by Jake, up for consensus this week).

[Drama] Item: To bar Jay from entering the space and participating in the community, proposed by Jake, up for consensus this week.

Jake: A lot people have weighed in on this issue through e-mail and in person about the process not being followed. I have a lot to say about the process; the process is not working. We had a thing where Jay was here and discussion about bad things happening and being done. We had a meeting and talk with Jay about his behaviour. There's plenty of reason -- right now this person is on a one-month ban, until October 6th. We should have banned him at that meeting, but that didn't happen because that process got fooled around with. Now people are saying that since he is not here, we can't ban him. I tried to talk about that when he was here. People talk about we didn't have a one-week notice about that item. Right now we're on track for Jay to just come back on Oct 6th after all the things that he does so he can just steal more stuff and ruin more computers and whatever else he's been doing.

[Jake reads Jay's email forwarded by Danny to the list. TODO put URL here]

Jake [still talking]: About Kayla's computer and everything posted to the mailing list, see nb-discuss for the record because I'm not typing all this out. -- BUT people are not comfortable banning someone who can't attend a meeting, and Jake is upset that it got the point where Jay was temporarily banned so there can't be a permanent ban.

Jake's new proposal: Pass an item that says Jay cannot attend noisebridge again until he is able to attend a meeting to discuss about letting him come back. Jay can give three days notice prior to the meeting minimum. In the absence of that process, Jay should continue to not return to noisebridge.

Jake still: Jay is extremely bad.

Leif: I was at both the last two meetings & can say that Jake's account is pretty accurate except for: Jay did account for his actions by agreeing to a one-month hiatus. AT the meeting, we did not discuss the really BAD things which people brought up later, after the one-month ban was put in place. As for having been put up a week ago for consensus and passing the item tonight; we did not have that meeting yet, and hopes that this will be the meeting before the week we decided to pass/ban the consensus item. We have two more meetings before the suspension is up; based on what a number of people have told me, we should propose a consensus item tonight to ban him next week and I hope others can speak of why that would be necessary. We should have a week for people to hear this proposed item and then decide to do that, and we have not at the last two meetings had a feeling we were going to consense on this the following week.

Christopher: On the list, as I recall, had put a tentative date for Oct 11 for a meeting to discuss banning him.

Leif: I don't remember that, but we can propose an item tonight.

Christopher: I have no qualms with Jay being banned; I'm not aware of what happened and I have no position; but I feel we should allow him the courtesy of responding to the allegations.

Leif: Would you feel comfortable offering him the option of a written statement & inviting him back for the meeting before his ban?

Christopher: I would be comfortable with that & giving him the option of choosing a meeting the week after.

Jason: I feel he did have the opportunity to face his accusers & present his evidence at the second-to-last meeting. I don't feel like we should go through the trouble of dragging him back again to misrepresent himself. I think we should follow "the law of the land". There are good reasons for the laws of the land. We don't allow anonymous accusations in the US, we have the assumption of innocence, etc. These are good ideas, and we should adopt them as far as we are able. Jay did have an opportunity to defend himself; now is not determining his guilt but sentencing. You don't get to defend yourself in sentencing. We've already done that.

Christopher: Did we not already pass sentencing of a month ban?

Jason: No. I said maybe it's a good idea if we have a month suspension, and Jay said I volunteer for that. And some people said bad idea, others said good, and Jay bowed out for a month. And now he is not in conflict. My suggestion was deliberate to not have him around for this. I object to requiring his presence for this sentence.

Christopher: We need to give him the opportunity to attend or decline.

[When people are bickering I am not writing shit down.]

mct: Voluntary month suggestion was a good idea; I'm glad he went along with it and it's great he did that. During that time, we shouldn't come back and ban him. If he comes back and is a problem, let's ban him. What problem are we solving?

Leif: He didn't say he definitely wouldn't return.

Jake: This person is extremely hard to deal with & you're presuming he's a reasonable person. Don't wait until he comes back; he's done enough.

Jason: agrees

Shannon: If we can't trust the man not to come back after he's been asked to leave, if we think he's going to show up here and cause trouble, what do we think banning will gain us?

Jake: we'll all be working together, unlike when 6 people were here and would not deal with him.

Shannon: IF we consense to ban him, and he shows up next week, what do we do?

Jake: We say we agreed for you not to be here.

Shannon: what if he showed up now?

Jake: We're in a meeting and then we would talk about it. ... etc. ... If we don't decide this tonight, no one will do anything if he comes back. If we do, people will co-operate.

Andrew: Sounds like there are two issues: We need to make it clear that if he comes back, we need to make a formal meeting because there is an issue. AT that point, he may choose not to bother. I also accept that at the end of the day, anybody may walk in. To keeping him out, that is quite problematic. If he really does want to come back, he pretty much can. This place is a privilege; if people are going to fuck it up, they lose that privilege.

Rubin: Jake, question: If we banned this gentleman, what formal process do we have to remove him from the space?

Jake: We're talking about it right now.

Rubin: What do you propose?

Jake: all the people that are here can state to him that he's not welcome here, instead of people saying "I don't want you here" and him sizing them up and saying no.

Rubin: We can consent now, but would that person who tells him to go be everyone from nb? How many people would like to see this person come back?

[Pause. No hands are raised.]

Rubin: Through do-ocracy how many people would like to put their name on a list to be called to help remove Jay from the space if he comes back?

[Many hands raised.]

How do you feel about creating a list right now, of people with their hands raised?

Jake: I think it's a great thing to do, but I still want to proceed with the proposal.

Rubin: I block you because we have reached a solution without consensus.

Miloh: you are not being considerate to Jake's proposal.

Others: Rubin offered an alternative

Miloh: Jake wants to alter his consensus to "let's not welcome Jay until he's come to a formal hearing".

Leif: That's a different proposal.

[argument, bickering, then back to the meeting]

Leif: I feel taking action on any consensus tonight, when nobody wanted to have a discussion last week, where last meeting everyone agreed we did not need to have a consensus this week. To consense this week to do something would be against our entire history of having a week of deciding to consense on something.

mct: This proposal about let's consense until you come back to a trial; I would block that.

Jake: is there anything you would not block?

mct: I think this do-ocratic list would work.

Jake: But this guy cares if noisebridge says we don't want you here.

Shannon: No one's saying he's not bad; we want to make a list of people to throw him out.

Jake: tells people who disagree that they weren't here dealing with Jay

[more dramarguments]

Christopher: [made a list on whiteboard of three things to discuss; because we are trying to discuss multiple things.]

Jason: A question Rubin raises, is there any meaningful difference between having a well-defined task force to remove Jay and having nb declare its disapproval of Jay. There is a significant difference. More important than whether we have a task force is to say "no more Jay". It's very important for the moral health of the community that when someone does these things, we as a community say this is not acceptable. It's important that if we don't come up with a ban, we come up with something as noisebridge.

Rubin: What is noisebridge?

Jason: It doesn't matter, Rubin. [LOLs abound.] It doesn't matter what noisebridge is, what is an orange? It's a stupid question. We all know what noisebridge is, I go to nb all the time and have arguments on the nb list; it is a community. We really need to talk about what is acceptable within the community; not what we as individual will does. Whether or not I will haul Jay's ass out of here is not the same as saying what we will do as a community.

John: What's wrong with calling a bunch of people to help?

Andrew: Jay's banned himself for one month and accepted as fair; why don't we talk about what happens when he comes back, not "Banning". People are happy with the voluntary leave; not happy with him coming back. We need to say, IF you come back, you have to come to a meeting so people can air their grievances to him.

Christopher: We're arguing about a lot of stuff, but we're not focusing on the item.

Shannon: There is not consensus in the room that we can have a consensus tonight.

Leif: People who do not want to have consensus next week should talk to me, Miloh and other people.

Shannon: Spirit of nb is people coming together and do-ocratically decided what needs to be done.

Jason: There's a question of whether we do it by mob, secret police, or in the open. The task force is shirking that duty. It's saying we will put together some thugs and engage in some thuggery.

Rubin: in response to Jason: WE have a general consensus here that no one here at this meeting feels that Jay is a person of honor or quality; does anyone feel that Jay should come back here? [rhetorical] Why don't we write an e-mail that a number of people had a meeting, just to let you know, everyone at the meeting really doesn't want you here anymore, additionally there are a number of community members who will be happy to escort you off the premise if you do return. What's the difference between that and a ban? We have 100% of people who do not want this person here & a number who will be happy to remove this person from the space.

Jason: Defacto ban: in practise, he may not enter again; and we are stating do not enter and we will back that up.

Rubin: You're going to get that either way.

Jason: What is the difference between that and noisebridge consensus? The differences are, one important, who hears what we say and what they hear, and who is listening. The larger community, Jay, and non-community members are listening. What do they hear? Jay hears a very similar thing, but what the larger community hears is different. The outside hears that we just told Jay that we have a task force but didn't manage to get our ducks in a row.

[lots of shouting, note-taker cringes and stops typing]

Leif: One member who cannot be here tonight asked me to make sure we would not consense to ban someone tonight. We have reasons to wait a week.

[Now everybody is arguing about whether to consense tonight, or next week; also a third that people will block until after Jay's ban; AND people who cannot be here tonight want to be here for it anyway.]

[FUCK THIS SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT DRAMA ARGUING. People are shouting at each other. I need more beer.]

[I spilt it.]

[Consensus proposal to ban the note-taker from the space for spilling beer on Rubin's laptop; motion would have passed, but Rubin has a spill-proof laptop, so motion blocked. -- The dalek bottle opener I printed did not serve me well; hoisted by my own petard. T_T]

PROPOSED FOR CONSENSUS NEXT WEEK: Jay is not allowed into the space unless he comes to a meeting with three days advanced notice that he wants to come to that meeting; and we talk about it then.

No consensus.

Item: Noisebridge shall pay the remaining funds required for an electricity measuring device up to $700, after a collection has been made, proposed by SuperQ.

SuperQ: I plan to have nb pay for a high-resolution metering device to attach to our main electricity panel to see what's using our electricity. The goal is to have network monitoring available live on the website, so we can publicly show how much electricity we are using. is displayed on the projector. There are graphs. Unfortunately, the existing free box can only monitor the mains & cannot monitor the circus. The light bank that you switch on and off is not on it.

Jake: Is the $700 out of nb general fund or some sort of collections, and even if it does come from collections, is that money that does not go into the general fund?

Disagreements over whether or not we have enough money; since we don't agree, we probably don't; but, the treasurer said last week that we are in the green.

Andrew: What's the financial benefit if we spend $700?

SuperQ: I'm trying to cut nb poweruse by 20-30%. I propose that this will come from general fund, but I will personally organize a small fundraising to pay for it.

Jake: will that one box deal with both breakerboxes; how would you feel about making something from scratch?

SuperQ: That one box will monitor both breakerboxes.

Jake: I can do it; cost is all labor, but we need an arduino.

SuperQ: $700 is a max, but I may not need this much to complete the process. The big deal here is: when I try and figure out problems, the first line of attack is measuring. If we don't know what's going on, we can't fix it. Monthly resolution kilowatt hour usage is second minute hour daily graphs so we can see where our electric use is going. Having numbers and graphs and data to back up changes is what I want; things like I have been moving a single data recorder around the space manually every 2-3 days to try and figure out what this an this and this frridge uses.

Andrew: Modification proposal: that we look into a scratch-built proposal, with a deadline.

SuperQ: There's no ETA on this powermeter being released by the vendor yet.

Shannon: if we build one before the powermeter comes, can we return it?

SuperQ: If you build it before it's shipped, I'll cancel my order. Money would go back to nb.

Andrew: How about money goes to people who built it?


Jake: It would be nice if we build this home-built goes into the general fund.

SuperQ: DONE.

Jim: Electrical use always is consumed by motors and by heating devices. Always. Not laptops.

SuperQ: Laptops are heating devices.

Jim: All that cooking stuff; heating devices.

SuperQ: From my measurements, 50% electricity uses are lightbulbs.

Jim: We can address that with spot lighting.

SuperQ: I'm working on this; but I think measurements will help know what's going on on a daily basis. Even if we fix things, we still don't know what's going to happen in the future. The only way we will know is by measuring.

Jim: I'm leary about that, so I'd like to add some ideas; one worry is that unless we make changes with lights, we won't change uses. We need to get rid of one fridge. If we let tastebridge & cooking go, and the drill press go, those things will not change in terms of use. WE're talking about managing use without discussing that.

[note-taker paused because it's too nitty-gritty detailed and I'm drunk]

AGREEMENT: Jake is going to start building the alternative device; SuperQ will fund raise. Next week we will build a consensus item.

Other discussion items:

Mike: Related to Rob 2.0.: He came back here and was wandering around. I don't know what's going on with that, but he didn't do anything here. [no one else comments]

Daryl: I've had a difficult time this week; I have a sense that there's a lot of things that people don't know about and they don't hear about them. And quite frankly, maybe if the group knew about, then maybe they would care. I feel like I'm a voice crying in the wilderness and there's a huge amount of double standards that can be extremely unbeneficial for any community, and I feel that there needs to be a mission statement. There's supposed to be one of excellence. Even just the beginning of this meeting, I just feel like it's pretty damn hopeless to get some righteousness or some lack of ... I was basically told I wasn't welcome here by Freeschool, then Jorgen told me, then everyone's told me that Freeschool's awful, and if you do nice things then you'll be welcome but every other sentence is are you sleeping here and who is sleeping here and everyone's welcome here but you're not welcome to sleep here. It's just all very up in the air about any kind of rules and chaos rules and funk rules for sure. I said I will fix this fly problem and I don't think think that varmints and mice, including people who are nasty to each other and nobody calls on it and nobody cares, it's just sabotaged. And if I have no worth and no people have worth; if it's just a sham, I'll find some place where people are nice and put their actions where their mouth is and have some uniformity. I'm really astounded at the double-standard and the ... What's important?

Jim: Could you be specific please?

Daryl: I mentioned I was running for mayor, and people wanted to hear my platform. I was told by Duncan when I had fallen asleep that people had discussed whether people would take your stuff and throw it out. Is my stuff safe? Then I have to find out who has power to leave or to repeat on a daily basis "you don't belong here you can't sleep here" and there are 9 people sleeping on the roof. If people are not allowed here, why do they do it?

People: they get away with it

Rubin: You're asking why there is no police force to enforce these things, and you feel that because there's a double-standard?

Daryl: well, yeah. You work for 12 hours trying to get some quality going, and then everyone's sleeping.

No more note-taking here. It digresss into discussion and tangents that are hard to track.


(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)

Discussion Items[edit]

End of Meeting[edit]

  • PGP Key Signing could happen now, check the list to see who wants in on the action.
  • Put back the membership binder in the black desk.
  • Save the meeting notes to the wiki.
  • Send a copy of the meeting notes to the discussion list.
  • Copy the Meeting Notes Template for next week's agenda and update the main wiki page's link to it.
  • Enjoy a cocktail with your fellow hacker or robot.