Meeting Notes 2013 06 18

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Don't forget to post the meeting notes to the wiki and e-mail the discussion list with a short summary.

These are the notes from the The 270th Meeting of Noisebridge. Note-taker: Casey Moderator: Hicks

  • One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.

Short announcements and events[edit]

  • BuyCott App store: Scan the UPC, it tells you who makes what, helps you enforce your ethics
  • Wade: I have this thing name Project Wildfire. It's a P2P Clustering filesystem writte in Dart
  • Casey: Thank you to whoever brought in a fuckton of scrap vinyl
  • JC: 5mof this Thursday. DO IT DO IT DO IT
  • Hicks: Thank you for cleaning up the shop! (Ramón says it was Chris. Woot)

Membership Binder [edit]

  • Wade: After meeting a rather cute russian hacker, he made me take a test. After passing, he gave me the address. (Much more awesome) One sponsor (JC)

Financial Report[edit]

Consensus items[edit]

Proposals from last week [edit]


Proposals for next week [edit]

Jake: I'd like to propose turning off the doorbell button permanently, so that you can't open the door without a valid code.

  • JC: I'd like rather see this in place during off hours
  • Nthmost: Is this part
  • Drew: Would this also change the pony door opening page?
    • Aside --> it doesn't work after 10
  • Leif: I'm far more concerned about false positives, like when you're keeping wanted people out
    • Jake: You're keeping lots of wanted people out by letting everyone in
  • Nthmost: You have to look at the behavioral tendencies of people who will spend more effort to get in there
  • Alex: I think it might make it more obnoxious. Can we make a better protocol?
    • Jake: I'm doing that by instead of creating a criteria for who we let in, creating one for who gets to let people in. People with a valid code
  • Shannon: A real hacker could manage to get themselves in
  • Wade: 10pm to 4am sounds reasonable
  • Casey: I think this has merit
  • Monad: Jakes suggestion would increase the security of the space. It would make me feel a whole lot better
  • Taylor: I'm not sure I'm OK with it.
  • JC: I would propose two additions: One would be a button that worked during business hours. The other would be a timer item that buzzes if the door is open
  • Shannon: I agree
  • Someone buzzes someone in and walks away as we're talking. Lulz.
  • Nthmost I think it's important to announce this again (to establish culture)
  • Casey asks a question about the door
  • James: I have a question for you Leif. What are the actual false positive concernes
  • Leif: When it was done before, we looked at the logs and saw that very few people were using the keys
  • Jake: I think the previous attempt failed
  • Dru: I added a lot of codes codes but they were all deleted? wtf?
    • Jake: Sorry about that. we deleted your codes because they were added without any comment
    • Dru: The level of friction of 7 or 10 digits is kind of crazy
  • Alex: Let's have a discussion of what the effect of walking down to let people in is.
  • JC: I'd like to have a discussion about changing code
    • Casey: I'd like to work on that with you, but we can do that after the meeting
  • Dru: Alex - the hagiography was that you had to open the door personally in the old space, so the point of walking up and down is a personal contact
  • Shannon: I think the disagreement here is the proper ettiqute over what happens when the doorbell is ringer. I think we have the idea that the person who opens the door should act as a gatekeeper. The other thing is that when someone wants to come in, the hospitible thing to do is to open the door for them. I think these are intractible
  • Taylor: When I first started coming here, I would run down and open the door. But as a new person, how are you supposed to judge that? How do you judge how to open the door?
  • Grey: This building is not just occupied by Noisebridge. This has never been a secure location.
  • JC: I think the point of greeting people is setting the expectation that this isn't a space that doesn't give a fuck
  • Nthmost: I'd like to ask Jake what fundamental problems this is trying to solve?
    • Jake: NB is being used by the people of SF not as a hacker space, but as a community space. Stuff is stolen. People's property is being stolen. People who should be coming to NB don't come anymore.
    • Nthmost: I don't think this would solve this problem. It sounds to me like the experiment was done.
    • Jake: Do you have a counter-example?
  • Norman: Hi. I'm a new guy. (How did you get in?) Somebody buzzed me in. (Did you get introduced to? Did you get a tour?) No, No. This is my fourth-time up here, and I was amazed about how easy it was to get in. There were 3 buttons, I pushed them all, I didn't have to say anything, and the door opened. This is something that needs to be worked at. Today, when I came from the BART station, there was a whole crowd of people waiting to get in. (discussion degenerates). I would like to be comfortable. (
  • DanF: Watch out for magical thinking with technical solutions. I think it's a good idea. It's not a perfect idea, but it's a good idea. It adds a little personal distortion field to both sides of looking at it. I really support the goal, but I'm really wary of what happens when it doesn't work especially when there's no culture. To answer Taylor's question: When I was walking out, I let the guy come in. Cynthia asked if I knew that guy, and I didn't. So he might have been a little tweaked, maybe just nervous. I came back up and talked to the guy and showed him around. I felt 50/50 that he was looking for what hunting grounds. This is really dicey. We are trying to be a little more culturally poignant and agonizing. I like to think I'm helpful to the place, I haven't pissed off too many people without apologizing. I'll try to make sure that I am. I'm really sensitive to how I'm looked at. One of the things that let me get to know this place was that I felt really comfortable here. What happens when your magic button doesn't work? Technical solutions work.
  • Dru: I will be quick. I hope we can reach some kind of consensus. I've heard a lot of meaningful arguments in both directions. I would posit that this is an item for the rebase meeting, which is discussing access control.
  • Casey: We've picked apart all the possible technical failures with this proposoal, as is our wont to do. However, I think we're losing sight of the fact that this is ultimately a cultural problem. I think if we try this again, with much more extensive communication, might have a very different outcome
  • Dana: The buzzer is very grating, and the access system is very confusing
  • Monad: I think what's important is that this is an attempt to change the culture of access to noisebridge.
  • Alex: When the previous attempt happened, there wasn't a lot of discussion about how to get a code. What if there was a self-service code dissemination system? As a joke, what if there was a credit card reader at the door?
  • Someone from SJ: Hacker Dojo didn't solve this problem by locking the door automatically at 10pm. People have been trying to hide clothing in cupboards to try and live there. However, by making it difficult to enter the space, you help push back the otherwise inevitable bit-rot that happens to these sorts of spaces. For use, the code + keyfob thing works quite well. Furthermore, HD is always full with people doing stuff. That's what helps keep theft and other things at bay. A busy space + difficult entry deters a lot of bad behavior. If I can make any suggestions, it's don't sit in the corner. More engagement is critical.
  • Leif: I think it's good that we're having this discussion, but I don't think we need consensus. I appreciate Jake's attempt to be upfront about this. There are a few people that problaby have strong opinion. I have a few proposed modifications
    • I think it might be better for it to happen only at night
    • The sound is extremely grating. Having a less irritating sound that was somehow moderated might be kind of nice
    • Temporary codes that are widely distributed that you can give to people you just met. Restricted hours? Good question
    • Members of the community who want codes should get a couple codes - one they can give away freely, and one they keep private
  • Alex: What about we have a lot more people sitting by the door. (This is a Rebase proposal)

It is decided to put this up for next week

Monad: It is proposed that certain issues should not be first discussed at the main meeting. Instead, there should be smaller meetings where more detailed consensus

  • Kevin: I agree, especially in the case of interpersonal conflict
  • Ramon: I agree.
  • There are some questions about whether or not this should be a consensus proposal by itself.
  • Nthmost: In my experience, this doesn't work because discussions inevitably
  • Dru: I think the rebase meetings have been working
  • Text of the proposal: "Some issues need to be fleshed out by a meeting of interested parties. They can identify the central points that require consensus during the weekly meeting."

Shannon: Not a proposal for consensus anymore. I brought this as a suggestion to the rebase meeting. Some kind of pick system, where someone signed up to be the lightning rod for problems of that time. (Maybe they have a different shirt. Red shirt?) My proposal was that the person have the ability to ask someone to leave. However, it was pointed out that anybody can ask anybody to leave.

  • Jason Dusek: We could appoint somebody to be completely in charge, on the condition that they are never here
  • Dru: Come to the rebase project. RedShirt Training
  • JC: What about a Red Book (can it be little) where logs are kept
  • This descends in to silliness

Discussion Notes[edit]

Started, 22:05 PM

JC - RebaseRecap. There are Rebase discussions, every Tuesday at 6pm. Please come and contribute in as many ways as possible. Wiki/Rebase. More info there. Thank you

Carl: There's been a recent post on the mailing list [1] regarding Dru. I don't want to go on this forever. We have to deal with this issue. We don't have a lot of time, but I'd like there to be a mediation about this. I volunteer as a mediator, but I'd like a few more. Do we want to talk about it

  • Martin: This seems like a lot of anecdotal evidence. I don't think we can do anything until either more evidence is brought up or there is mediations.
  • Request for someone to represent the accuser. What can be said about it? This is frustrating because it seems important, but I don't think we can move forward.
  • Carl offers to contact the parties in question and bring them in to mediation
  • Dru: I'd like to request a neutral party be the moderator. I must keep responding to this conversation
  • Kevin offers to mediate
  • Carl will facilitate the process
  • Leif would like to thank them both for stepping up.

V: I keep hearing at these meetings that the one rule is to be excellent to another. I'd like some clarifications. Maybe some people don't know how to be excellent. Maybe they didn't have parents who taught them how to be excellent. Maybe some people don't see stealing as wrong. Maybe they see stealing as liberating.

  • Casey: I think that the challenge of interfacing with our culture is a critical portion of joining us. If you can't be slow and figure things out, then I don't think you belong here.
  • James: I disagree with Casey. It doesn't seem like Be Excellent is really the rule. Like no sleeping, or no hard drug use
  • Leif: There is a page on the wiki, Guidelines, that was created in a similar context as to this several years ago.
  • James: That's exactly what I said
  • Leif: No, the point is that you have to talk to people to figure out the rules

The downstairs neighbors have complained that Harvey is living in the stairwell by the darkoom. He has been sometimes trapped and and knocked on the 2nd floor. They like him - he fixes their computers - but they want us to keep our top stair door unlocked

  • Irony abound
  • Leif: Has harvey been told this is unexcellent
  • Hicks: He claims it's not Noisebridge's responsibility since it's the landlord's space
  • Leif: Harvey: will you never go in that stairwell. Can you say in your own words "I will not got in that stairwell"
  • Harvey: I understand.
  • JohnnyRadio talks about Harvey's behavior regarding music. Please don't just unplug it, instead of asking
  • Dru: Let's just solve this problem
  • Leif: Harvey, what do you have to say about people's complaint that you were in the stairwell?
  • Harvey: Well, what do you want me to say:
  • Leif: I want you to say that you're not going to be there anymore.
  • Harvey: Okay, I won't go in and out of the stairwell anymore
  • This should be mediation


  • JC / HardHatHacker
  • Leif: likes Privacy Preserving Online Services
  • Shannon: I'm loud
  • Carl: Mobile Apps & Privacy. Wants to meet folks and discuss privacy enhancing
  • Christopher
  • Dana. Teaching folks to use LEDS and shiny
  • Jasmine
  • Grey: Hacking a commodore
  • Douglas: Likes making music with technology
  • Jake: I feel stronly about this place and keeping it excellent
  • Ichi: Software engineer. Creating a pirate radio. Applying for membership
  • Waffles: really good at Lotus123. Interested in the intersection btw. technology and culture
  • Nthmost. Sequences genes, pirates radio. See me after class
  • Ramón: Interested in, in chronological order, linux, python, locksport, privacy, politics
  • Jim: I organize hacktivism. RFIDs invading everything. Working on a 560MHz reader
  • Flea: Scrambling programs for individualized personal usages.
  • DanF: I interrupt a lot.
  • Felipe: Interested in free software
  • Drew: Works on mobile development; GIS; Hybrid web
  • Casey: Working on a raspi replacement to horsy
  • Martin: I like taking things apart and making them in to different things
  • Taylor: Really in to music. Came here to fix his synthesizer, mitch taught him to solder, now learning Python
  • Leon: Likes music. Programming in Max
  • Norman: Learning how to program Android phones. I know lots of old systems.
  • Hicks: Moderating this business.

Now that the meeting is over, don't forget to post the meeting notes to the wiki and e-mail the discussion list with a short summary.