Meeting Notes 2014 05 06
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These are the notes from the The 312th Meeting of Noisebridge. Note-taker: FIXME YOUR NAME HERE; Moderator: FIXME THEIR NAME HERE.
- One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.
Short announcements and events
- Bullet point list of announcements and events
312th meeting John volunteered to 501c3 hackerspace, make hacker build do stuff based principally on do-ocracy Jarrod says code of conduct is be excellent
introductions: sid hacker, software, hardware
jade neurohacker, studied psych compsci, recently python Java
Cynthia, kitchen person, food hacker, personality hacker
Jarrod, designer, works in wood shop
monad, tinkers around
Campbell accurate notes
?(new guy, sorry I missed your name) sysadmin
vee, wants a nice place for everyone to come to
bill, cooperative sociologist, how do we cooperate?
Corey, tinkerer writer
Adrian, mailing list admin nazi, also stirs up trouble?
Chris likes to hack hard & soft wares, cryogenics
john, not an alcoholic or rocket scientist yet
Dan, programmer, neuroscience, art, here a lot
Mikey, comp engineer, robotics, consciousness hacker
Kevin, biochemisty, functional programming class, Facilitator
Short announcements and events JOHN is organizing makerfare! Volunteers? People who get passes need to help with setup, Saturday, Sunday manning the booth. Cool projects anyone wants to bring down: contact john Neurofog@gmail.com Issuing passes soon.
Mikey: proposing a monthly meeting in the space, Conciousness Hacking, had one, another one planned for Saturday, create a comm. Based on ah ands on approach to new tools and tech for changing the way we feel, ex. If you look at what meditation does to our brain, ask can we design tech to do the same thing, taking the form of wearable to play music, measure heart rate, change color of wrists band, tech that interacts with you in some way to change the way you feel in a desirable way, speakers, lightning round for ideas, and presentations, make connections to help people work on projects. He's been doing it on Second Saturdays of every month, not fixed in stone, roughly in the middle of the month on Saturdays around 12-1. Probably not first sat because of godwaffls
Vee – sat at noon, postal union wants us to come to 101 market, Chalk-upy, provides food May 12 occupy forum anarchism, past present future,
Kevin – if you want to have an event at any time, check the schedule, no conflict, great have an event.
Dan- Godwaffles showed up on sundays
john – please don't delete anything off of the calendar unless double checked
Adrian- apologises for deleting event off of page, did not quite grasp the gravity of the background, it turns out that Joseph had been made to feel like he wasn't welcome here, apologies for moderating email without mailing the list. Hopefully there is a better way of doing this the next time. He won't log in for four weeks to moderation queue except to delete Spam. A couple days ago 6 known Spam emails unsubscribed at the same time, so it seems like some trollers gave up
Kevin, lets move on. Eliminate old and stale events:
circuit hacking Monday, Jarrod says it must be happening
collaborative coding: ?
Monday 8-10 front end web dev- still happening
Tues 7-9 “Ruby & Rails” in Church – happening RIGHT NOW
NB Weekly- Happening RIGHT NOW
DATA in Turing – has been on hiatus, never got off ground, check with Stan – DAN
SF LINUX DISCUSSION IN TURING – DEF HAPPENING
Timebank every odd month -
fem book club for men, has not had principle actors tom/al/charlie - DAN
Python class – wed in Church – new teacher, in flux
Thursdays trash night – happening, has to happen
collab coding- thursday night ?
Front end webdev part 2- happening – dan
5mof- still happening
machine learning meetup – hasnt happened for a while – dan
German night – aged out?
Digital archivist – on hiatus
TasteBridge 2.0 1st and 3rd Fridays – stans been traveling, lets wait til Friday Probably still happening – DAN
Friday 4-10 FUN TUTORING AT COLLABORATION STATION – Stan Osbourne joint that has been on hiatus with Stan
GODWAFFLE NOISE PANCAKES – Check with Douglas.
Noon-6 modular and analog synth workshop – left TBA
DND LOOKING FOR NEW PLAYERS
monthly lock sport collab – leave it..
BAHA – 2nd Sundays only, 2pm
GO 3pm Sundays, l
Elements of image making, Dan hasn't seen it happen, but hasn't been looking. Maybe not happening
KEVIN MOVING ON, Treasurers report? No financial report this meeting.
John- we didn't have one last week either, can someone reach out to Danny?
Kevin will send message to the list
Jarrod 2 categories of membership to noisebridge, the type we are referring to tonight is capital M Member, members who come to the meetings and make decisions to manage the space, deal with business of NB, what comes with that is power to participate in consensus, which is how NB is governed, beyond that there is not much else Member's have over others – they can block consensus, bc of that power, new members are consensed in to becoming members, which requires consensus of others members, those who want to have that level of participation in the community, fill out a form, read aloud at 4 meetings find 2 sponsors who are M's to vouch for them on their application, read for 4 weeks, 4th week they are have the option of being consensed for Member's Other class is the associate members, ppl that have access to the space, become that way by getting 4 associate members or M's to vouch for them on the wiki, directions being on wiki, does not go through consensus, beyond that everyone is welcome to come and hang out, ideally getting someone to vouch for you, but in practice anything can happen. John adds key requirement for being any member is BEING EXCELLENT Dan add there are also people being simply members of the community and look at the member levels and wiki page as a good option for those not here long enough to be recognized by face, put out as 3rd option which is very informal, but helps this place Jason in SF for the next 10 days, figured he would just show up. He went to a conference in New York a while ago and heard Mitch Altman speak Diana came here with her girlfriend and she showed her around, wants to learn how to hack and build things.
qbit week 4+
javier week 4+
Jarrod – stale forms are deleted after 3 months
John – usually people are willing to sign if the members show up and make good
 Financial Report Funds in bank: Noisetor (See the bullet points at the bottom of http://noisetor.net/finances/#summary):  Consensus items
Kevin Where the magic of consensus happens......... explain cons.
>Vee- the way cons works, occupy too, lateral sharing of power, everyone should be happy with a decision, everyone votes on something, only takes on person to block it, they have to feel really strongly with that, and if they are overridden, most people stand aside, purpose of cons is to make sure there is unanimity and to make sure everyone is happy, cons is usually used her to deal with banning, so M's have to take this responsibility very seriously, cons
John – there is no limit to blocking, but it is preferred in the block is explained, and preferred to come up with alternate solution
Vee- does that create a new proposal?
Kevin – good detail – if a prop is amended, requires another 2 weeks through process to arrive at cons.
Dan- consensus is very important for our structure where enforcement is up to the people, where people take their time and energy, and requires, if you're going to do something that needs consensus, it requires real consensus,
Monad- doesn't even have to be majority, but requires no one be willing to block
Kevin – any concerns?
Foodhacker – would like to see him attached to associate member, that someone be responsible for him for a period of time, and then reconsider that restriction
John – I don't think we should put any procedural condition. Community has made it clear that there is no sleeping on top of the elevator, and the will of the community is no sleeping anywhere. So I think that the whole banning/taking a break. So I think that the strong push for ban was Tom pushing hard for a ban, but I don't think attaching onerous procedures is necessary, just don't do boneheaded things like that again, PLEASE
Rayc- when that meeting happened, felt like an agenda item rather than being spoken for, after decision someone said maybe a couple months maybe t3 months, felt shut down.
We banned you, cannot reopen discussion because we banned you, yeah it sucks for you, you don't get to bring it back up once its consensed, if you could do that then we could talk forever.
Monad- it was a compromise from perma ban
John – rayc respectfully the 6 mo ban was a compromise originated by john, because sleeping on elevator is inappropriate but someone did block the perma ban and it was discussed at length, and john pushed hard for it no to be a perma ban, despite Toms desire, it wasn't rushed through
Vee- concerned greatly for many reasons, 1, all raycs contributions, (member wall) hes done a lot for nb, been here the longest, cares a lot for people, has calmed down Vee for many times, ie argument with Sid over fuse box. 2, when she straightens up the library, he cooks dinner for her. Considerate so he thinks he should be unbanned
Kevin would like to make a point that consensus CAN unban rayc
Casey – when was Rayc here about the circuit board? Sunday? Wants to know day
john – quick redirect, fusebox issue is ongoing
Casey- Rayc, why were you at noisebridge,
Rayc- Sid invited me to help him not die
Casey – you are banned
rayc- I know,
Casey- not productive conversation, I like you, I am disappointed in this conversation, disappointed you continue to come here. Considering blocking unban because of attitude
rayc- tense and stressed, I am here to discuss this not have attitude
Casey – why were you here
rayc- to help Sid
Casey – invalid response, and I believe that overrides the unban of rayc I am considering blocking unban
rayc- I wanted to be here working with seed because of his talent and experience and needs help, so I'm here because I care about noisebridge and feel its the right thing to do, moral courage, building inspector, accusations of calling bldg inspector, I wouldn't be doing this if I don't ha
Casey – understanding i'm really mad at you, how could you have done that better rayc – better....
John 0- there are serious concerns about how he returned rarely I don't know how n the community valid this is but there are many I Casey -this is a digression
rayc- I wanted to make a point how there are quite a few people who thought I called the bldg inspector, and I thought I would show up to show that I wasn't the one calling the bldg inspector
Casey I don't doubt your motivations, but I want you to understand i'm mad, how could you have done it better
rayc- I didn't understand consensus until I discussed it with seed, but should have asked to come back on a Tuesday, but didn't have that ability until I came back communication isn't my strongest point, and I like building on things, wants to learn how to communicate more effectively, and I felt like that was the faux pas that led to this, and if seed is mentoring me, maybe I can be unbanned and work under somebody with a mentor.
Casey – I agree, but want to block unban for another month. Monad, I like rayc, great contributor, but spitting all over our faces in consensus, and seed inviting someone in whose banned, should now better seed last meeting, didn't we say we would invite him ?
Dan – yes a meeting
monad- rayc has been coming here during the day even before that. Thinks the way he uses the space is not healthy, and maybe a 6 month break would be good, before ban you were walking around like a zombie, using this as hangout and living space, Jarrod – you have a lot of support in the day to day community thats here, no one kicks you out. Sounds like proposal is being blocked, are you coming back anyways?
Rayc- compromise – instead of full out ban, let me limit my activities to set number of hours during the day, until I am unbanned
Casey – not okay, you flagrantly disobeyed the rules of noisebridge
Dan- Ive talked with Robert and other people in the space about Roberts presence and Ive explain it as civil disobedience, which is the courage to say im making a point, but im going to take whatever comes for making that point, very complicated, Ive appreciate d the point by saying hey where is consensus day to day, but the consensus in the meeting says otherwise, Ive been supporting your stance here, and im going to wrap it up and say I don't know im confused and conflicted, id like to see serious concerns that Casey has brought up and
Sid – I need help with all this, when I put out the call to come help me, rayc responded, John I think the way the ban was handled, what if rayc led by tom was unexcellent, however consensus should be respected in noisebridge and would like to offer compromise, Casey, what if rayc stays away for 30 days
Casey – i don't accept, it wasn't led by tom, it was consensus, and I don't agree with modifying the consensus.
Kevin – Casey has strong feelings, simmer down and close the stack after we hear from others
John- I did respect that Casey was upset and offered a compromise
vee- its not rayc's fault that he came back, I felt bad about the way he was banned, lets face it not all of us have equal say, we don't get to vote on proposals, associate members just get to be here, so she doesn't respect the consensus process, its elitist, Kara comes here, shes banned, and no one gets to defend themselves, don't blame rayc blame me.
Rayc- during the meeting if you can recall, when I spoke for myself, tom interrupted, and I felt like I had no representation, so thats why I disobeyed. Others people have done more negative things, and haven't been banned. I messed up, I know I messed up, the punishment doesn't weight the action, if we can discuss the concerns with sleeping in front of the elevator, health, injury issue, nb could get shut down, credibility issue. Stupid, negligent, bad decision, as for shut down, there are so many other things that could get nb shut down that aren't being spoken about. The punishment is out of proportion, Casey my position remains the same
Adrian- why isn't vee a member? There is no prereq , if you are disillusioned by consensus. Why not get membership?
Kevin – consensus is a tough process, if everyone through the door could participate, wed not get anything done
Adrian – its not the first time Ive heard someone disillusioned by not being a member, and since I've been coming here barriers to M has been removed
rayc- membership gets blocked for silly specific reasons, like Howard, im not the only person concerned about this, this is fascist, when it was stated that tom was making sure the people would be selected
John – for the record whatever deviations occur, saying cons doesn't work is disrespectful because thats the way nb runs, but if tom was misusing it he will be accountable
Adrian – I think that when naomi's mum came out and participating, she had good points about consensus as a process, and I disagree fundamentally with the term block as a catchall which they don't need to give any reason for. Cons is supposed to be compromise, if there are actors acting in bad faith, and are forwarding their agenda, then the consensus process is broken, and we could debate that forever, but it wont really make this discussion easier. Is consensus as its been practiced that last year flawed? Probably. Dose that excuse elevator sleeping? Meh? Yes no? From my seat im less worried about your approach at civil disobedience, and whether you are going to do something like this again, and are you going to pay any grievance? Trying to not pass judgment here, I get the feeling that your disobedience against how nb is run is rubbing people the wrong way.
Rayc- first off, I think tom is not all the problem, the operation of tom is the complete problem, I like what you and Naomi's mum touched on, but I feel that the consensus process is used more as an algorithm than being used for people to work things out, and I feel what consensus should be is something else, I am here to state that I would not pull another bone head move like that, and the reason it happened is I wasn't communicating and I think if I was going to come back, I need a mentor like Sid to help me work things out. There is a community space, I haven't always made the best relationships , may have been tattered, arrogant, but I want to work toward solutions, additional support. Asking can I work on this with these people, clear up loose ends. Another thing, I moved the member shelves, in the name of excellence, the reason im bringing that up , that became an overwhelming force for me at noisebridge, causing me to act a certain way, adding additional stress. Ive always acted towards best practices, working towards clarity, I haven't been able to reach out, or felt comfortable in the space, I haven't found someone o sit down with and say this is whats going on.
Nicole- I haven't known anyone in the space willing to learn more than rayc Sid before I took rayc back I took a poll of people in the space, at least 80 percent of people who come to noisebridge agreed to sign a petition to bring rayc back, including Mitch Altman. If Mitch's judgment was bringing rayc back
Casey – because he disrespected the cons process, it doesn't change my position. From an emotional perspective, we were this close to banning rayc through consensus but made it out by the skin of his teeth. The fact that hes been continuing to come here, the fact that you think its acceptable to do civil disobedience to your peers is unacceptable.
Sid isn't this place about hacking?
Sid im urging you guys to reconsider, this place is about hacking anything
Casey im always against people hacking noisebridge
John first, saying the only person who could possibly help Sid is rayc is a crock, if you put the word out to the list there is a chance people would help propose another compromise, rayc would you consider doocratically removing yourself for 30 days because that would help reduce tension and concerns that you are misusing the space that would give the members
rayc I think that would be appropriate Okay.
Guy next to john I don't know rayc, I have experience with community, im not going to speak to specific issue, but the larger issue is the integrity of the consensus process vs people individual agency are coming together, because he was banned and the censuses of the voting members of the group who are responsible for the direction of the group, he showed up anyways, the discussion should be around whether the integrity of the rules that we set up a vs respected member of the community taking rules in to his own hands
Adrian the only ting I want to bring up about the banning process is that the reason there ware no ridiculous requirements around the . Because if people are threatening themselves or others in the space, they should be asked to leave so the immediate threat is removed but this isn't about you in this particular instances we should make it more difficult to an people and why we don't currently require consensus to an people and why we don't just ask them to leave th e space, I think we should ask the list for a better understanding of peoples opinions who aren't here monad consensus has nothing to do with voting, there is no voting, only a lack of a block. Its no a definitive majority, they could be against it but if no one blocks it could pass.
Dan – I just want to remind people of the octant, and speak to Robert about the time in which this happened was time if great turmoil, and disillusionment about whether we were in fact a consensused based org and whether our structure dynhad betrayed us, we had a situation that the board as it existed just sort of had a coup attempt,. And there was no more cons and thats the context where Roberts civil disobedience. Now that we've turned a corner, this is a different group, toms not here, Kevin, Casey, monad, john and what im hearing a lot is that theres gotta be balance and theres a real concern about take it out of your specifics, and the general problem of people respecting a ban, i've heard Casey wont consider removing a ban for 30 days, same form john, maybe 30 days would do magic, and id encourage conversations with Casey, sunsunquist, peoples who comfort is integral to remind people of context, and maybe its no appropriate anymore.
Jarrod rayc you do a lot of great stuff at noisebridge, and Ive learned a lot from you, so I find it extremely frustrating to be in the space when you're here, because it is really difficult to see someone so great for nb being so disrespectful of its core principle after being here in a ban, I wish you and believe it would have been possible, to work out a reduction of the 6 mos to probation period, where through cons we could have brought you back to the space, when I come in to the space, and you are here, I feel like I am disrespecting nb by letting you stay, pressure from Dan and Sid. I care less about computers than I do about consensus.
Rayc on of the reasons why I have worked on many projects in the space is I see lots of efficiency, and I see ease, place of exploration, learn new things, I feel that by at least doing some civil disobedience is my version of hacking consensus, and there is something flawed. We haven't been taking a human approach, there is a lot of community support, and I have been a part of the community, and because of the context I have been shut down without any alternative, I never got a better offer, so this is my version of saying hey im here hacking noisebridge, and I feel it was definitely unjust despite the influential power and the mob mentality I felt was being used against me, I am admitting to it and appalled with what I did, understand that the way I feel this punishment has been handed down to me is unfair, being punished in the wrong way. Cutting off contact wont solve the issue, it wasn't the ban that broke me but the way it was handled. If were a community we should be working with the community.
Kevin 3 min tops per person
John rayc every M became an M by respecting the consensus process, one of the key tenants. We have reached out to you and tried, you are testing patience because we know whatever tom did he did but thats separate from what tom did, its irrelevant to the question, because a lot of people are concerned about you, but they honestly believe you need to take a longer break from nb to be sure you are contributing positively, by arguing the point rayc if you look at the membership history, there are people who did not respect the consensus process john rayc I think you need to be quiet and not test patience bill I haven't become a member, except that I come around, through this whole period, watching the tone of the meetings over the last many times, its a really great meeting now but it was not a great meeting when tom was MC or whatever, consensus has to function when everyones mind is able to participate. When you have someone thats really loud or very eloquent vs hose people who are so quiet, they may be quiet because they cant say what they want to say. Its an uneven process to have this disparity and expect consensus. You can say you have consensus but does it really mean consensus when some people never really got to say what they thought, or the issue was so deep they don't get to say what they mean, I respect that you get to go through meetings rayc some members had first heard of that issue that night bill this consensus process is damaged by the way people interact here. Deja im just watching, when i first came to the space, rayc is the reason is tuck around, learned to be effective, always have projects to do, taught me what hacking meant, more than half of you rayc did the exact same thing for, if a person if a part of this family, I feel like there is no sensitivity, and I feel like im being trampled over by a power struggle where im being given a 1 and others are being given a 9. its not fair. I really do agree with bill. If you want to be real, standing off listening how this went down, its clear he was railroaded, if you cant see that I don't know what to tell you. We're trying to have an effective community there is ego stroking going on, you know who you are, I would have more respect for it if I saw people scrubbing floors and washing dishes, right now we're arguing about stupid bullshit and getting nowhere. Kevin we are no longer talking about unbanning rayc, Angel when I first came here, rayc is the one that helped me. Me and him are becoming really good friends, its unfair hes being banned. Rayc my final closing thoughts on the matter, I understand this is not a cons based comm, its whatever members show up and decide to be a part of the community, I understand its not the people who show u-p, but the people who show up at the meetings. There are enough people in the room right now who are working on this is part martyrdom that I am showing up right now, and I feel like I shifted the whole community in a positive direction, you can ban me forever, but people can now see that there is abuse and how the balance of nb has shifted. So many people show up all the time helping the space but are never acknowledged, if you guys want me to leave, please ask me to leave and Adrian – another thing I want to add, I don't really mind the civil disobedience, there are larger things at stake no one has touched on that has to do with the effects of enforcing the rules. I'm okay with you with you coming back but if you see people in the space coming, rayc I would feel that if situations were simpler, people should participate in civil disobedience I guess what you can say what I did is hacking ,ive discovered lots of flaws with our social system and exposed them, there are other people who have been unfairly banned, but have been pushed through. I am really overwhelmed, i was banned by a community that I have been a part of for many years, I didn't even have the power to speak.
Kevin my insight is that there was a period of time where ive been doing consensus solid for a year, when this happened it took three weeks, not a blink of the eye, it didn't happen like that I do have a lot of empathy for you, a lot of people weren't heard at meetings for a while, maybe because too quiet, or because they weren't members, I don't think thats a healthy process either, I like the direction we're moving in. in the past year, its hard or easy getting things thru consensus based on whose in the room . One shouldn't block consensus. I will leave if this happens, ive been trying to promote the practice of I have a concern, I also appreciate the community building process that this has passed. Hackerspace guy- I object to personal attacks, x person said I did y thing. Attacking someone in a discussion does nothing besides making you try to seem better than them. It says something about the participants. I would encourage others to refrain for attacks rayc- the reason why this took 3 weeks is because other things came up. It kept getting moved back, the lack of actually working on it as a topic of priority are part of the similar dynamics that were happening I at the time, I came to those meetings, I only came at a certain time, other things were pushed- through. I took like a month.5 where I haven't been here, and having alone time I realised if someone is asked to take a break, Adrian– naomi is trying to do a conflict resolution group trying to get people talking about this stuff, so hopefully there will be a better way to do this moving forward, poke Naomi about this later. Electing a specific person to drive conflict res over doesnt seem to be reliable. John you said no one spoke up for you, are you telling me you didn't know my contact info or others that would be willing to speak up. Rayc my direct response, I didn't feel comfortable enough, Adrian make sure you don't burn yourself out, lots of people forget to rest, don't work 18-20 hour shifts, more likely to minimize drama and communication breakdown Get some fucking sleep./
Brief announcement – super way important, member shelf in front of the circuit panels – biggest no no ever Sid – code says 6 ft.
But if your stuff is on member shelf E, it must go. It can be on any other shelf. Sid- propose move down one shelf Prepare for shelf E to be monkeyed with. Jarrod- is that clear floor space? Sid – yes has to be clear, code says 6 feet.
Vee – when someone mentioned consensus and community, I don't really think we should assume we mean the same things, there is consensus of Members, and then there is consensus of community, what are w4e really talking about here, there are so many different understanding, and then the community. In the real world that we reside in. the real community is the people who come in here cook, fix things. I would really like you to think about granting more power to extend blocking powers to people beyond Members, Kevin before we dive in, any other consensus items? Sid real quick, the elevator is dropping more and more towards the front side, started scraping wall Kevin contact building inspector curly hair, contact Andy? John will post a note curly hair DONT FUCKING HACK THE ELEVATOR John I just want to make a quick point that theres nothing stopping associate members to find a Member to block on their behalf, done it before, will do it again. Saying only Members have absolute authority and nothing else matters is not the case. Adrian – the whole point in having the capital M thing, requires that you're already participating in the community, so I don't by the idea that theres a disconnected between capital M members and community, they're supposed to be one in the same, the only thing stopping M's from being a part of the community is only
Sid there is still confusion in the process
Adrian if you want the community to be more present then you too could start sponsoring more Members so we could have more people voting. I encourage you to drag more people in to the capital M member part of the community. Deja Which capital M member will sponsor me? Lets try to make this deja we get the crazy motherfuckers out here, I cooked all this food for the meeting , we do all these things. Dan- I want to respond to vees comment about how Member's feel about consensus and I really like consensus, I think its necessary for practical and philosophical reason,s you need it, and I was really disappointed and concerned when there was a m ove away from consensus in the last 6 moths s, we are all aware of the drama and it was great to see the consensus of the community is we like consensus. Answering Adrian, I personally have mixed reasons that I wouldn't block, I like that people have influence not power. Since then I have stuck my neck out to call M's out for things they have done, I wouldn't test the waters. I wouldn't test them especially if they don't have enough social capital to I think if anything is going to change we need to rock the boat a little, if someone feels threatened, please all as one come together and have this discussion with everybody, because if you guys don't do it , nothing is going to change and I encourage civil disobedience like that. Dan I like having influence but not power, too much responsibility. Jarrod, so should the panel in the shop/ kitchen required to have space? Adrian lets make a mark on the floor. Jarrod its kind of nice not being an M and doing stuff in the community. I don't feel like I don't contribute to the community.
- The name of the applicant, the week of their application, and their sponsors.
- Funds in bank:
- Noisetor (See the bulletpoints at the bottom of http://noisetor.net/finances/#summary):
(Add any items which pass or are blocked to the Consensus Items History page.)
(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)
- List of names and short summary. For bonus points, link wiki user pages.
Now that the meeting is over, don't forget to post the meeting notes to the wiki and e-mail the discussion list with a short summary.