Meeting Notes 2020 02 04
These are the notes from the The 556th Meeting of Noisebridge.
help take notes at - https://pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting
Date: 02/04/2020
Moderators: Tim
Note-takers: Nthmost, pyconaut, self-proclaimed "anonymous coward"
Meeting Summary[edit | edit source]
TLDR what happened at the meeting:
- Fundraising Update: We aren't doing much, but Comedy Night is pulling in a few dollars and it's rad.
- Announcements: Hydroponics! Punk Rock Show Feb 13th! bag-making hackathon this Th at 6pm! GDC parties!
- Finances: About $145k in the bank and falling
- Guilds: Mark is really doing this arch-guildmastering thing, alright!
- New members: nope
- New philanthropists: not today
- Consensus Items: maybe? we toyed with the idea of making a silly one. So, no.
- Discussion Items: We did not make a decision about whether to put Lizzie on the 86 list.
Introductions[edit | edit source]
(Name - Pronouns - What you're about, generally, in 60 seconds or less)
- Tim - he/him - biotech for the lulz
- Kierra - she/her - hydroponics systems! Tues @ 6
- Wheezy - - software engineer / musician, hack all the things
- Lucas - he/they - find alt econ models for artists and others, help get out of scarcity mindset
- Naomi - she/her/they/WHATEVER - hacking anarchist systems
- Ryan - he/him - helping take care of NB, doing VR stuff, love giving tours
- Dave - he/him - i like to fix things! electronics, muumblemuble
- Luke - they/he/him - i do garden educaetion for middle schoolers, film, art projects, community stuff
- Louis - he/him - 'puters and other stuff
- Dave - he/him - software, image processing stuff, first time at NB
- Kevin - he/him - 1st time at NB, mech eng, hack some hardware stuff
- Carl - he/him - 1st time and mech engl and serial tinkerer
- Tyler with a K - he/him - doing lots of stuff, 3d printing, all that jazz
- Rasheedah - - been here a lot, friends with Dimitris, work on bikes and music
- Hamilton - he/him - electronics, teaching kids electronics
- Igor - he/him - e2e encrypted email, human and machine languages
- SNP - he/him - sewing, laser cutting
- Jams - he/him/they/yall/WHATEVER - software stuff, other more IQ-y stuff, sewing
- Tim - pickle Tim
- Jaguar - whatever - that's all i got
- Ama - st ratz w/ lisa! dropping off flyers!
- r - they/them - security + automatic infrastructure
- Mark (remote) - games stuff and ArchGuildmaster
Short announcements and events[edit | edit source]
60-second description per item in bulletpoint.
Dank memes slack channel - Join to post Dank memes!
Ryan: Global Game Jam / Hack comedy both went awesome
Luke: Event proposal - dance party fundraiser. The idea is to do some sort of dance party / FUN raiser. Invites some djs and some IPAs. [Scheduling / More in discussion]. https://www.meetup.com/noisebridge/events/268273299/
Jams: bag-making hackathon this Th at 6pm. Eli is a pro bag-maker. RSVP - meetup.com/noisebridge https://www.meetup.com/noisebridge/events/268326043/
Street Ratz: Feb 13th (Thursday) Sludge, Emo, Dreamo, hardcore rock show, evening -- volunteers wanted -- @StreetRatz -- "a nice punk party"
Ryan - Noisebridge-GDC parties prob the sat/sun before GDC, maybe also Friday, saturday afterwards. Music groups maybe? GDC is Mar 16-20, but there are surrounding parties. Will share more info as things draw closer.
- Rasheeda - hydroponics group -- please don't eat the kale. I'd like to take up more space back there, does NB think this is ok? (Nthmost: sure! this is what NB is for!) (Tim: as long as it's not irreversable!)
Excellence[edit | edit source]
Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.
(What does that mean? How does the Anti-Harassment Policy fit into this? Are we SURE we know what being Excellent is? This is an important and fundamental conversation at Noisebridge, so let's give it like 120 seconds.)
r: Excellence is a thing you're always striving for. We don't have any other rules officially but lots of norms and passed-on agreements about what Is and Is Not Excellent. Has its ups and downs. People have different ideas of Excellence. the Anti-Harassment Policy covers things that shouldn't be left vague. Naomi- we should talk through our differing opinions of excellence
Participation[edit | edit source]
Everyone at Noisebridge is a participant at Noisebridge.
Do-ocracy in 20 seconds: means if something is trivial that needs to be done, just do it! if there's no TP, just go buy some, don't ask people what to do. No one charges money to be here. --Tim
Rasheeda: where are the "supplies"? Nthmost: exactly where you expect to find them, if there isn't TP in the bathroom then it's out.
Tim: always check around to see if the thing you want to do is cool or not cool. Little-c consensus. Big C consensus: if there's something BIG that may be an "issue", all the members get together and discuss.
Ryan: you can participate online, on Slack, on discuss, if you want to know what's going on.
Lucas: do-ocracy
nthmost: A while ago there used to be a photo booth - and now it's sparkleforge. There was a ceiling space where people stuck a couch. Some people disagreed and took it down. Then it was back and nailed up instead. Then the first group came back and nailed the couch upsidedown on the ceiling. Do-ocracy in action. "The Parable of the Couch"
Philanthropists[edit | edit source]
A Philanthropist at Noisebridge has earned enough trust from the community to open and close the space.
- ryan goes to find the binders* *perhaps someday they will be remembered before this section*
Dave - ppl given some trust to renew access tokens, open and close the space. Shepherds, keep the place nice, provide general guidance, give tours.
A mysterious voice shouts "Dave would like to be a philanthropist". (it is Dave.)
Up for Philanthropy:
- Richard Barnes - not present tonight
Ryan: also with Philanthropist you are asked to make a recurring donation. Suggested rate is $40 - $80.
Membership Binder [edit | edit source]
Membership in Noisebridge entails community Trust in Consensus.
Read the wiki for details Naomi- we need more members, its about trust. If people trust you in the space, maybe you should apply to be one.
Financial Report[edit | edit source]
Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.
- Funds in bank:
$145,000 Cash in the bank ($7k less than last week because a new month started and we paid rent) $11,000 BTC + Etherium Low point of past year as we finily paid back a few fiscal sponsership goups, we did all our finacial duties for the govenrment we theorectical broke even last year
Kierra: People who know how to use certain equipment could teach classes and request money for it
Dave: we do that to a limited degree. Robert does this with CHM. We put the onus on him to do security on top of the teaching, i.e. opening the door & vetting ppl as they come in. (Nthmost: you're saying he needs to recuit help). Dave: sure just pointing out that he does this.
Ryan: Yeah ppl have tried to do that before, whether it's donating for specific aspects of NB, e.g. Gamebridge... we used to have a sign for donating to the VR booth (not sure what's in there anymore, that machine needs upgrades...)
Tim: Let's move this to DISCUSSION!!!
- The latest financial reports from the treasurer are available at https://noisebridge.net/wiki/Finances
Fundraising Update[edit | edit source]
How's it all going
GuildMaster's Report[edit | edit source]
What is the current state of structural organization at Noisebridge? New Guilds should be established on Discuss
- What are Guilds?
Naomi- this idea was formulated last year -- a Guild is a focus group around some group of knowledge. It should help increase knowledge-sharing and institutional knowledge retention within Noisebridge.
- naomi talks while throwing lightsaber pieces*
- naomi becomes chief of cleaning guild*
Nthmost: Right now, certain people are doing WAY too much. Most people aren't doing anything. This is a huge vulnerability.
Mark: This ^. I have a metaguild. If you'd like to help out noisebridge in the general area of organizational wrangling, join me at MetaGuild! #guilds on Slack
- Which Guilds exist?
Games Games-VR: Ryan Philosophy Guild! - Nthmost - first meeting was this past Wednesday. 4 ppl hung out and drank wine and cheese and discussed metamodernism for 2 hours.
Sewing - Ruth?
Crypto - Elimisteve
Electronics - ?
Laser - Ruth
Woodshop - Noah is defacto reluctant King in Exile sorry Noah! (When you act all useful and authoritative at NB, people will defer to you!)
Music - ?
3D Printing - ?
Meta:
Hydroponics: Kierra creates the guild.
Ryan directs Kierra to one of the dozen wiki pages on starting a guild
Infrastructure: something going on with domain transferring; probably other stuff
Access control: Melody's access got straightened out; slack channel topic for #rack was clarified to point access control requests to #access-control
Interim assistant arch guildmaster [in training] is Ryan
Community Sustainability proposed as a new guild.
Tim is now official Biotrash of the Witch Guild - also a pickle. It's how he got where he is today
Tyler: Mark became the Arch guildmaster. I.E. Head of MetaGuild. I.E. SENIOR CHIEF EXECUTIVE GUILDSTER
BOTTLENECK TO CREATING GUILDS -- someone who has admin access needs to get on discuss.noisebridge.info to add a Guilds category.
- How is our online community doing?
Talk and discussion is happening! Slack has been somewhat active. Discuss has been a little bit active. Some stuff has been happening on games' discord.
- Guild Rep's Reports
Games: We had two classes where we did music for games, it was great! We did a game jam this weekend and lots of people attended! It was also excellent.
Philosophy: Looks like Philosophy Guild had it's first meeting Wednesday! Guild would like to focus on reading one article or book in prep for each meeting. Notes and reading materials will be posted on discuss.noisebridge.info
I still have no more confirmed guildmasters reporting. Still working on getting that going. Music is promising, as is Woodshop.
Consensus[edit | edit source]
Consensus is how the Noisebridge Membership may change how Noisebridge works.
Tyler: NoiseBridge general meetings should be renamed to "NoiseBridge Secret Meetings"
Steve: Would people become scared to show up, like "should i be here?"
Tyler: Make a sign saying "secret meeting will be held in the NB Hackatorium at 8pm"
Robert: [aiabwlmlkm hhahsvhahhh] *inaudible noises in the background*
Nthmost: we could use this as a practice consensus item, we haven't done one in a while.
r: ppl did a bunch of really bad (non serious) ones that were rejected...
Tim: *attempts to recount what r was mentioning*
Tyler: actually none of those actually became consensus. the laser one wasn't "really" consensus. All of the $$-amount consensus items became little-c consensus because they were expenditures we had to make (longer discussion would have been superfluous).
Nthmost: this one could be a great bikeshed tho. where it doesn't really matter but people could get really angry about it.
Tyler: But NB doesn't actually have a bikeshed... soo...
Nthmost: ...what? no, this is a common metaphor...
- more back-and-forth over what NB has or hasn't consensed on recently and whether it "counts"*
- Tyler learns what "bike shedding" means in terms of management*
Proposals from last week [edit | edit source]
(Add any items which are consensed upon or someone has raised a principle objection for to the Consensus Items History page.)
(none)
Proposals for next week [edit | edit source]
(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)
(none)
Discussion[edit | edit source]
(We prioritized discussion items based on expected discussion time and interest.)
Circuit Hacking[edit | edit source]
Expected time: 00:02:00
Robert does circuit hacking monday.
Goal for circuit hacking monday: bringing in th Onion Omega, so if you're a python programmer, js, c++ -- you can use the Onion Omega to use programming to learn hardware, to make it more fun.
Fundraiser Party[edit | edit source]
Expected time: 00:15:00
Dance Party -- it'd be great to do a low-key fundraiser, maybe repeating, invite DJs from the community, people who want to help host, use various parts of the hackitorium, use the barbot.
Let's start something regular with a suggested donation.... inviting experimental dance.
What day of the week do people think would be a good day to do this? Thinking 10pm to 1 or 2am.
Dave: not to be negative, but i think we need to take some efforts not to dance into the flaschen. Wheezy: we can put the tables up against the flaschentaschen.
Steve: Sounds awesome, let's get Noisebridge more diverse again.
Ryan: def agree we should try to keep NB organized. we now have a movable wall folded up by the music area. if we build things to keep ppl out of certain areas we can def minimize various risks. Not allow ppl to sit on nice chairs so they don't pee on them.
Tyler: as Ryan was saying, Victor was saying he raised a few hundred from the comedy shows. A lot of people come in briefly, grab beers, and then go to the back. was thinking of making it more exclusive in here while the show is going on. So if you're here for an event, you should be HERE for the event.
Wheezy: we can have an anarchist bouncer, just asks you nicely to be more excellent
Steve: talk to Godwaffle about their methods to be successful
other Steve: importance of in-person donations. online methods are too much friction.
Luke: we can have someone at the door collecting money but if ppl come in who aren't here.
Tim: "Everything is fluid here and things leak all the time, don't worry about it."
Ryan: If you're recording things, having the show place blocked off will make ppl feel more comfortable about it.
Luke: we can talk about it more, i want to do it informally at first and then see how it goes.
Ecology Group that wants to use NoiseBridge as tech support[edit | edit source]
Expected time: 00:05:00
Ryan: some Professor from the bay area is applying for a large ecological study research and application grant to chop down dead trees in forest around the area to min fire risk. has started getting saw mills and things together. he wants to use NB's Maslow CNC to cut some tables out of the slabs. B/c of the type of ppl here in NB, he wants NB to be sort of a technical advisor as well as possibly discussing getting some of that sweet sweet grant money for our shop.
Ryan: Ideas -- small plasma gasifiation chamber to turn wood into biochar for local farms... stuff like this.
He's applying very soon and I can't remmeber if it's $200k or $100k but if it comes out with pos findings it'll be another $200K. not sure how much could theoretically go to NB.
Nthmost: can we set up a meet-n-greet? Ryan: Yeah.
What would be expected from us? Be his technical assistants and students, more or less.
Ryan: Colleges are much better at this than various companies i've researched so it could be interesting.
Dave: moar power to anybody who wants to try but the grant itself sounds a bit random so i'm skeptical. please validate his credentials.
Tyler: sounds like a legit grant but it's not like NB can commit to something like this. If ppl from NB want to do this, then we can optionally slap a NB name on it. But it'd actually be like a group of 4 ppl here involved with the process.
Ryan: i'll bring more info to next meeting
Whether to 86 Lizzie[edit | edit source]
Expected time: 01:05:00
Tim: explains what 86-ing is. Describes our 86 list
Luke: can you get un-86'd
Ryan: Yes - "individual" tried to live here once. Got better. And was able to come back as long as he would not try to live here.
Steve (Physics): *takes room check of who knows about the situation*
Steve (Crypto): There are a lot of people who come by NB who are often very toxic, but with such high turnover at noisebridge - these people often slip by because they don't always witness the toxic behavior. I have read the context provided by Naomi - and I agree with the overview. She was particularly against the concept of people having power at NoiseBridge - and partly responsible for pushing Mitch out of the community.
/* Naomi - read outloud by steve Context: Lizzie is a person who has been spotted lately coming back to Noisebridge. She left after having more or less flamed out as a result of attempting to become a Member at all costs (which is really not in the spirit of Membership). En route to attaining this dubiously exalted status, Lizzie helped cause a tribalistic divide in the culture of Noisebrige and routinely bullied Mitch Altman. When Mitch attempted to formally block her Membership (a process which glitched out), Lizzie's tribe insisted that Mitch and Lizzie go through "mediation" to somehow make things OK. This went poorly and resulted in Lizzie going "on hiatus" and Mitch Altman decided to leave Noisebridge forever.
Several people at Noisebridge believe Lizzie constitutes an existential threat to the culture of Noisebridge. Lizzie uses the language of social justice as a weapon to demonize people she doesn't like in a way that feels unquestionable to those of the "wrong" identities. She also lashes out at anybody who speaks up to disagree, gathering anybody she can get on her side to see her as somehow the victim. These behaviors aren't immediately recognizable as a pattern within a short span of her being here: they add up over time.
People who have a problem with Lizzie being here, of which Nthmost, Fineline, and Elimisteve constitute 3 who will go on record, are considering putting Lizzie on the 86 list so as to keep Noisebridge from having to go through another traumatic period of dealing with Lizzie.
THE QUESTION: What is a fair and community-legible process that people should follow when considering banning Lizzie? Naomi */
Steve (physics) - Marco said online "wtf is she back here?"
Ryan: I was around during that whole period. But I personally was trying not to take sides. I never saw Lizzy and Mitch at the same time. I have a bad habit of talking to everyone at noisebridge - and she was the first one to immediately tell me to go away. I tried not to let myself be baised on the issue. When stuff got out of hand with the membership issue - she seemed to fight way too hard for membership.
Stuff that happened in 2018 is still affecting people. A friend of mine was nearly 86d because they called out a couple of people for having a conversation about "how bad Mitch was", one of whom did not ever meet mitch. They didn't go through the right channels (there were no real right channels at the time (meetings did not talk about #space-guardians))... he was asked to leave when he wrote this online, my friend then asked the other to leave and caused a segfault. So that's a few more ppl.
Tim: yeah it does still have a sore spot and hurt ppl.
Jeremy: I was pretty good friends w/ Lizzie, we're not _really_ friends now, we occasionally chat... i was kind of absent during the critical blowup and would like more context about it.
Steve (physics): i'm sort of in the same position, considered Lizzie my friend and actually vouched for her membership -- also here for the conflict. Given what I've heard from Naomi, scotty (who won't come back here anymore after all that -nm), as a result of that my opinion about her being a member changed. It changed to "wow, i ignored a lot of things about her behavior that others picked up." in partiular, she was part of a mediation whose result was 3 critical Members of this coop LEAVING. I don't care who i thought i was before hand. If she valued Membership over the people in this community, i no longer support her Mmebership. And I would support 86ing her.
Eliminsteve: Specific examples. Originally i liked her a lot. Brilliant at computer security. She would pick these tribalistic fights in Slack. Old NB versus New, cis versus Trans. These are 2 specific tribes, she seemed to bully people who were on the "wrong side". I hadn't heard anything bad about her originally, I thought she was clearly violating AHP but nobody seemed to agree. She was up for Membership, and then there were all these other people w/ negative experiences w/ Lizzie, and Mitch talked about how he doesn't trust her to be a Member and was blocking her Membership.
... Naomi: Lizzie would often use her identity status ([removed - r]) to scare people away from critism. Main reason for J (o.g. circuit hacking person) to leave
Dave: as quick as possible -- i feel like a lot of ppl here just care about being able to create ppl and making a space for that. And if someone's here just creating drama and a place not conducive for creativity, all of this stuff doesn't matter. This should be enough to 86 them. And we're talking about 2 different hings: 86ing or not allong Membership. We talk about ppl changing... so what is going on right now? Did she do something recently?
Tim: recent reappearance, and the question of whether she should be allowed back.
Dave: Then why didn't we 86 then?
Tim: Emotional exhaustion.
Tyler: agreeing w/ Dave. A lot of ppl come here to hack. In general NB is kind of a leaderless space. It's not a good place for 1 person to come in and shape the ID of noisebridge. One thing I hear about Lizzie is that this was an aspect of her personality was wanting to change the way NB as a whole behaves. We've 86'd people for less. I've honestly heard enough on this that ppl think she shouldn't be around. Emotional exhaustion, she didn't get 86d before because she drove people away.
Nthmost: it was definitely a war of attrition.
Tyler: Smart ppl can push boundaries, come back in 2 weeks when things calm down, claim credit for something, then go back to being a jerk again.
Elimisteve: some ppl might here this and it sounds too negative twds Lizzie, but historically NB has been so painfully irrationally reluctant to 86. Lizzie, Beka, Rando. Eventually they left before anybody did anything. Months went by, suffering.
r: Some notes to review. When there are a lot of little things adding up for a person, we do end up valuing and hesitating to kick out people who contribute to the space. Lizzie set up the audio space, worked with ppl here. At least from my perspective there would usually be a higher standard for 86ing people who are more familiar with the space, not just ppl off the street.
So Naomi's example of J leaving fairly early in the conflict b/c he felt harrassed based on -- J really did misgender people. It is necessary to address those things. Eliministve, your "oreo" comment online was really inappropriate and Beka responded... I just want to point out that the instances I have seen publicly, most of them have been legitimate issues that people have dismissed. I think Lizzie is being scapegoated for results of trying to make Noisebridge a better place. I think people just do not like change. None of Lizzie, Beka, or Rando have been banned. I believe I'm the only person who has asked one person to stay away (Beka because precence would currently inflammatory).
Tyler: I'd like to encourage decorum here. We're talking about ppl others don't know about. R has been very factual as far as I have known them.
Tim -- passes the light saber to Tyler
Steve (physics): I'm happy you brought these pts up because I agree w/ most of them.
R: I think ppl are in agreement on most things.
Steve: Well I think you're the only one
R: I think factually we disagree very little.
Dave: something needs to happen, R, what would you suggest.
r: It may be good to 86. I will address that later.
Luke: you were saying she was using her protected status as a means to bully ppl, that may be up for debate, but i think it would be a shame to combine that too much b/c we'd like to be welcoming to marginalized ppl. I think it just gets down to ppl who are divisive and antagonistic. The situation i remember w/ J, he was accidentally misgendering someone and getting shouted at. It was policing language instead of stewarding it, and I think that's what ppl have a problem with. I have found Lizzie divisive, i found it very difficult to interact with, very interesting but "prickly pear". If we invite her in we will have a lot of people who have to work around her.
: I wasn't here for any of this and I have been partners with a trans person before. obviously a lot of what she was saying created a rift. I think a permanent ban in this case would be excessive b/c it's not the most recent thing they've done, it's just being here and showing their face. I think excellence here would be for NB to clarify the boundaries that NB needs to operate and allow Lizzie a chance in writing to respond with their pt of view.
Ryan: to clarify earlier statements: I don't think J was trying to misgender ppl. I have many times failed, and it is my fault and it's hard to fix, but i don't think J would try to misgender ppl or be scientific or something stupid about what gender is.
Wheezy: I've never goten to meet Lizzie, but one comment: i know this is touchy to many ppl. From everything i've heard, there's one rule here, to be excellent to each other, and we all know it. I think one day I'll meet Lizzie and maybe I'll love her or hate her or whatever. But in general the rule is to be Excellent (not perfect) but excellent, and I think everyone should take a deep breath and think logically. 86 her.
Jeremy: that time w/ that group was all about representing the underrepresented, because there hadn't been much going on up to that pt --
Nthmost: Oh i disagree. I very much disagree, and that's what makes me so angry about it.
Jeremy: -- i was kind of grouped in that group and then all those people left. I think the main motive is providing more sensitivity to more things we needed to know. And I think those were the justice warriors that were very agressive but that was the motive.
Elimisteve:
Dave: a lot of ppl saying important things. But i think for this dicsussion it's important for us to focus on whether to 86 Liz and what is that criteria
Nthmost: i have an answer to that.
Dave: so, were hou saying you were against 86ing lizzie?
Jeremy: no, i was just filling in part of the conversation.
Tyler: She didn't get to be part of the community by being wrong about everything, she was probably right about lots of stuff. Good deeds don't make bad deeds go away. they don't erase bad deeds. Lump sum evaluation.
Eliministeve: r has tried to suggest that i'm tribalistically against them, and the things that's tragic is not that Lizzie and Beka were being too pro-trans. No, they were trying to get a certain ratio of their ppl by bullying other kinds of ppl. Lizzie: brilliant hacker, social bully. I don't think she should welcomed back based on her actions.
Lucas: If trans ppl are anything like my partner, they are full of PTSD.
Person: has anyone told Lizzie her behavior is problematic?
Nthmost: Yes, the entire year of 2018.
Nthmost: let me suggest something now that we've set the stage. Lizzie can come back IF she goes through mediation with everyone who has a problem with her. [anonymous coward: Isnt this what was happening before, which you then used earlier as a way of criticizing lizzie? like, she demanded mediation, boooo bad how dare she? perhaps the same standard should apply here to anyone demanding mediation: 86 them!] <-- that often is exactly what happens. The 86 page contains a list of people who were intuitively-statistically determined not to be worth mediation.
Tim: uhhh that sounds improbable. Schedules, getting people together,etc.
Nthmost: Right. So let me suggest, how is this different from 86ing someone.
Tyler: Argument against remediation: there's ppl who she's offended, and then there's who's around.
Tim: I don't want to have a meeting like this every week. This is a lot.
r: I haven't seen hard evidence of bad deeds. [anonymous coward: Tho regardless of deeds, is lizzie a net positive on Noisebridge? or a net negative?] Addressing Fineline's pt, Lizzie rallying people to talk shit about NB, we shouldn't let issues suffer unrecognized. Mitch is someone who has been bringing up issues w/ Noisebridge and that's a good thing.
Ryan: If someone cares enough remediation should help, but if they're let back they will be watched much more closely. Putting someone on the 86 page, i don't think it's an end-all deal. It tells them "you screwed up and you have to work your way back really hard" and i think that makes a lot of sense. I definitely think talking w/ people is important. It's definitely a useful thing.
Wheezy: direct response to r's comment on the reason for banning, i think they bring up a lot of valid pts. Kind of ridiculous to ban someone b/c someone's feelings got hurt. there's a spectrum. would ppl be comfortable w/ Lizzie walking in here? We have Excellence, we have the AHP, i think if we're following things here we'd say she has harrassed ppl.
Tyler: to Ryan's pt, she would be watched more carefully this time? Elimisteve + institutional knowledge. I didn't know who she was! Now i do but what if I'm not here in a month. she's not a super recognizable person. We shouldn't have to guard Noisebridge or actively police the space.
Elimisteve: Either they got caught red-handed, OR there's 15 examples of circumstantial evidence, so I want to know if there's a specific number of ppl.
Jeremy: isn't it ONE?
Nthmost: if it were one, we would have just done it by now.
Elimisteve: For the ppl who don't believe she should be 86d is there a certain number of ppl that would help show that it's not just a conspiracy or something?
Jeremy: What number do you think, Steve?
Elimisteve: I dunno, between like 5 and 8 probably? 3 people could be like "fuck this person" for not great reasons, but more than that... I dunno, if 5 ppl, that seems reasonable.
Nthmost: Yeah I don't really want to set a specific number, because then it's like you just get 5 ppl together and ban whomever you like.
duscussion is moving offline
BACK ONLINE GUYS R and steve discuss the merits of remediation (mediation)
r - if it is brought up in a public form with total consensus, it should be clear to 86
r - I require hard factual evidence to be swayed towards removal
r - there has to be 1-2 fairly bad acts for 86-ing someone.
Luke - what about the concequence of making Mitch leave?
r - hard to say that was exclusively her fault.
more off line talk, meeting ended at some point.
No action was taken with regards to Lizzie.
= End of Meeting =.