Meeting Notes 2020 03 17

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These are the notes from the The 575th Meeting of Noisebridge. 

URL: pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting

Date: March 17, 2020

Note-takers: everyone

Moderators: Nthmost

Welcome to noisebridge - online apocalypse edition. Words.

INTRODUCTIONS[edit | edit source]

  • Ryan He him [online]- VR, just set up folding at home computers in VR area "DO NOT TOUCH please"
  • Tim - he/him - [online] software for biotech lulz - isolate yourselves you boobs.
  • NinjaA - he/him [online] - helping build an AI-powered climate change library
  • Tiffany (she/her) [online] - helps host Free Code Camp and Sewing Project Night meetups
  • Tyler (he / him) [online]- Too enamored with fun video calls to meaninfully participate
  • Robert(human)[O_L] He/Him Bro _ Attend Circuit Hacking Monday !!
  • Taeer[online] Any/All pronouns. - mostly software, also loves the lasercutter. recently been setting up a raspberry pi / smart house
  • Kinnard: I love you all.
  • Alice (she her) Lawyer here to talk about the order
  • Jehan (he him) longtime member and opinion holder
  • Lucy (dog) emotional support
  • Carl G (he/him) - flaschen taschen demos. Corona pixels? (remote from the east bay)
  • 尺口丫 (he...) just using Chinese characters to display "ROY". Into typography, dataviz, experience design, signage, transit...
  • Relay (he/him): just like FOSS
  • TJ (he/him): Robotics project on Wednesdays (we have a Slack but I might try this...)
  • Chris (he/him) - [in the flesh, microphone not working due to hack] music and noise
  • Nthmost - keeps getting knocked off the riseup pad - gonna try to moderate
  • John B - (he/him) [online] Software, bad hardware, and confused about how this remote meeting is going down
  • Mark - do game stuff and trying to do guild stuff.Guilds are like the illuminati
  • Malik he / him
  • lxpk - he - Gamebridge/VR, remote
  • boredzo/Peter — he/him — sewing, 3D-printing
  • Tinnei - she/her [online] projectors, physical interface, helping at https://helpwithcovid.com/
  • DAVE - HE HIM Advocate of not using jitsi
  • James - he him
  • Noah - he him

~ ~ ~ t e c h n i c a l d i f f i c u l t i e s ~ ~ ~

~ ~ ~ everyone turns off their video ~ ~ ~

~ ~ ~ we switch to Zoom anyways ~ ~ ~

https://stanford.zoom.us/j/393908882 (Just added this Zoom link to the discuss post on this General Meeting)

Short announcements and events[edit | edit source]

60-second description per item in bulletpoint.

The world is on fire (metaphorically, not to be confused with when the world is literally on fire. like australia and california not long ago.)

No events in space, due to the cylonsK (~.*.~)


5MOF will be held through a livestream, with people presenting from a jit.si videomeeting (should beeasier due to only having a few people, need to test with OBS) -- will be streamed out so ppl can watch w/o overloading Jitsi.

  • note: jit.si has a practical limit of ~20 people

My locker screen went missing. Anyone know where it went? - Tim

Locker cleanout needs to happen in the next couple weeks

Circuit Hacking Monday. -- Robert running this remotely on Jitsi

Sewing machine trainings are cancelled through May, for both Cylon and impending-move reasons

Postponing new lease (at least May 1) -- Tyler talked to the real estate agent, still wants us to do a followup tour with a contractor. to discuss what needs to be fixes and possible costs


Excellence[edit | edit source]

Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.

Right now being excelent is avoiding going to noisebridge

not excellent: getting booted off Zoom in the middle of a meeting.


Participation[edit | edit source]

Everyone at Noisebridge is a participant at Noisebridge. (What does that mean? How do you get a door key? Access to Slack, Discuss, etc?)

do not come to noisebridge

Philanthropists[edit | edit source]

A Philanthropist at Noisebridge has earned enough trust from the community to open and close the space.

none Kinnard would like to become a philanthropist, but he is broke. <- that's not an issue, Kinnard!

Membership Binder [edit | edit source]

Membership in Noisebridge entails community Trust in Consensus.

No people are up for membership


Financial Report[edit | edit source]

Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.

BTC tanked, so our BTC windfall doesn't mean as much as it did a week ago. :p Wait for it to go back up?

  • Is there an ideal place to ask written questions without interrupting talker?
  • Zoom chat? Bottom of the screen has navigation for a chat box...
  • Too bad we cannot see chat + video stream at same time...

Ryan: Can I say something: I just wanted to remind ppl that ... who haven't been here long. NB has a long history with crypto and selling it at good and bad times...this stuff happens. Dealing with it the most logical way we can. Be positive. More crypto in our future. Good or bad prices.

Lets just move forward ppl. Severly affect us.

  • general sighing*

John: I know Tyler knows his shit... but you need a policy. You need to dollar cost averaging (w000t!) (HEell Yeah!)

YaSSSS. Dollar cost average FTW!!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_cost_averaging

Nnthmost: Lets move on. Tons of stuff to talk about.


Fundraising Update[edit | edit source]

How's it all going

  • Nthmost: Seems like a bad time. Other than sending out SOS, etc... "we are hurting". "Kick us some $$$.'

But don't go overboard.


GuildMaster's Report[edit | edit source]

How organized is Noisebridge?

-Nhmost: Everyone write an update on their thing.

Taeer: Have guilds become more of a thing?

-Nthmost: Mark has been pushing to make them more real.

-Mark: If you are not part of one, get in there.

-Mark: reading verbatim: Guilds are a totally optional layer of bureaucracy on top of Noisebridge You can participate, but don't have to... They do not impose new rules on Noisebridge (though they may have internal rules). They are self forming. You can get together and form such things. Meta guild too. Various guilds.

---That's all folks, updates are below!

-Wheezy breaking up, difficult to understand. Crackling.

-Everyone apologizes.

Ryan already knows. Ppl are trying to add guild to the moving plan. ETC.. .music moves music. Gamers move the gaming area. Stuff, and some stuff, Ryan and Nthmost. Most to come in a bit...


The current state of organization at Noisebridge is: moderate? Definitely getting better and healthier.

What are guilds? A totally optional layer of bureaucracy on top of normal, anarchy noisebridge should anyone want to participate and improve their organizational skills. Can't stress enough that guilds DO NOT IMPOSE RULES ON NOISEBRIDGE AS A WHOLE. They simply aid in moving conversations and improvements along.

(Someone could try to take a stab at adding their own interpretation of what guilds are/should be)

Online comms:

Guild Reports[edit | edit source]

MetaGuild[edit | edit source]

I didn't do much this week. Sorry!

PR guild[edit | edit source]

WoodShop[edit | edit source]

Nothing going on here, shit's closed down until we move.

Gamebridge[edit | edit source]

Thursday game development class moved to Saturdays @6pm so as to give us some breathing room (from both ourselves and other classes that want to happen on Thursdays) and also so that hopefully more people will be inclined to attend. We shall hold the Saturday class via streaming/voice chat in our Discord (discord.gg/9UWnwtu)! Wednesday's art meetup will be cancelled for the time being due to "shelter-in-place" :(

New-Space[edit | edit source]

Looking to tour the 272 Capp street space with a contractor this week. Paul and Tyler will be on a call tomorrow afternon (3:00pm) with the RE agent to discuss delaying lease stuff on account of corona

Electronics[edit | edit source]

Cancelled robotics meetup last week in favor of Slack stand-up style of meeting. Will probably do a Jitsi meetup like Robert did

Philosophy[edit | edit source]

Started a Facebook group due to popular demand. https://www.facebook.com/groups/511661883110390/

Hydroponics[edit | edit source]

Music[edit | edit source]

could use another teacher to assist with ableton classes once or twice per month. currently down to one regular teacher. If interested, contact on meetup.com/noisebridge

Sewing[edit | edit source]

Sewing machine trainings are cancelled through May, for both Cylon and impending-move reasons.

Tiffany has been inventorying our home sewing machines with an eye toward getting rid of some of them and only keeping the good ones in the move. Ruth has expressed in interest in getting a grant to procure a uniform fleet of one model for classes and things.

The Crypto-Guild[edit | edit source]

the crypto-guild does not exist. slash see fundraising above

VR [Ryan][edit | edit source]

VR area is now being used for folding at home covid 19 research.

New Guilds?[edit | edit source]

Consensus[edit | edit source]

Consensus is how the Noisebridge Membership may change how Noisebridge works.

-Do we have things here?

Ryan: A proposal. This week will be for discussion and to consens

Noah - ummmm trying to find it. babababa There we go... okay....... extremely literal in the notes. Thanks. (welcome)

Temporary delegation of space magic powers to the Board members[edit | edit source]

We are rapidly approaching the time when major decisions need to be made regarding the move to a new space. Many of those decisions require complicated tradeoffs, timing, and coordinated communications which can be made more difficult in the often chaotic and time-consuming environment of Noisebridge. Because these issues are so sensitive, complicated, and critical to the future existence of Noisebridge and its community, I propose that we do the equivalent of voting “order” in Twitch Plays Pokemon: grant space magic powers to the current sitting Board members.

Space magic power is defined as the full and exclusive power of decision making on all real-estate related decisions, including lease/sublease agreements. Space magic power does NOT mean that this group will be the only people who will work on space-related decisions, but rather that they have collective and exclusive automatic consensus on actual decisions made for the space. If, for example, they must act immediately to negotiate or sign a lease, they would not need to go through the Consensus process to do so. The group of persons with space magic powers are granted full authority on how they self-organize.

Space magic power will be removed 6 months from when this proposal is Consented upon, or 3 months after any move to a new space, whichever comes first.

Tim: We made this descision already. IF we need to make an order we can. Still in the notes. https://discuss.noisebridge.info/t/the-world-needs-noisebridge/1574/5?u=kinnard

  • Lots of different interpretations*
  • conflict kind of , but no big deal *

Noah - I'm not tied to this particular thing. It's just a proposal for how to move quickly and try to maintain our principles Anarchy..etc... ...wucikly going over. Please interrupt me. Kill this and move on... etc... Space magic powers given to the board... Temporary things about moving...I think... lots of views.... See purple text.

Why did this come up? normal consensus can take 8-14 days (depending on when it comes up) This is not great for fast decisions. one of the reasons _C_onsensus works is that you have to be in person. This isn't happening anymore, becaues everything will be remote. So this is not serving the purpose it used to serve. This could be done in other ways, but we're exposing ourselves to risk not making provisions ahead of time. Seems to be around making descisions with the move.

Feedback and echos. Dead space. Please USE HEADPHONES Mute yourselves!

  • Ryan: Can we make a stack on riseup? Or is it still unstable?
  • Nthmost: Everything is tricky. Nothing is perfect. So lets see...(getting disconected from rise up)
  • Noah: Awkward since running the meeting. Going to stay quiet. Going to go with ppl raising e-hands.
  • Nthmost: Can you post in Zoom group chat? on the stack? Nthmost will call on ppl.
  • Tim: I have called myself some stack
  • Started with dashes but they are confusing.
  • Q: How many ppl at NB right now?
  • Kinnard: Want us to count?
  • Tim: Nah, just how many can you see from where you are?
  • Kinnard: 5 in hackatorium, and then 2 more somewhere.
  • I am now, 2/3 in Church, counting myself- Malik. Glitchy a/v.
  • Tim: We are in a city wide shelter in place (tim said quarantine). Tim is wonderring if it applies to NB.
  • Nthmost and others we are not discussion Noah's idea around faster consensus...
  • Someone: This is a special convo about deciding stuff faster

Awkward silence around this... Next Taeer. (sp?)

Taeer: Has this come up in the past where we need fast decision. What have we employed to consens faster. Giving power to a few is that really faster? Can we just make a really fast process to whoever can show up? Just an idea, I have not been here that long *hesitates* I guess I will start with that.

Nthmost: Does anyone have a response they would like to use right now? Wheezy or ...

So NThmost says we have consensed in the past on basically giving fiat power to the board.... we have in the past though of giving that KIND OF POWER on specific things. For example, are going to sign a lease very soon, so do we give that power to the treaserer or the secratary..

We had a situation right before the reboot, circa 2014, where the Board wanted to make decisions quickly and decided to route around Consensus for all sorts of things. Ended up a complete disaster (long story).

If we can be very, very specific about what types of decisions to give away to the Board, that's probably OK, but to give broad power to make decisions, that's a recipe for problems.

Dangerous precedent.

Wheezy: Can everyone here me? We can hear you now! We already discussed this a bunch, but lets just move on already! Some ppl discuss pros and cons of leaving, NB stay how it is... and this virus is just slowing it all down, so it is an opportunity to think about how we are going to organize this move, and this issue has been discussed a lot, so lets move on. Any direct responses is welcome.

Noah: So this is... is that ok? This is this is..no no sorry..

Back and forth with others... ... *dead space* unease on who should talk***

So this is not a question of whether or not we move,,, but it is more around the consensus process.... Official process. It's not a question of what space, but how does the community decide.

Tyler: Announcing lack of opinion on the subject, because I think that it would work either way. I don't see, in the Consensus process, someone blocking the decision to move somewhere. The other option is Noisebridge not existing, or only becoming a laptop coworking space, which is against what it has been for so long. Really doubt any existing Members would advocate for that, or community would accept such a Member doing so.

  • Kinnard:
  • Ryan: No me!
  • Everyone: Huh!
  • Yas.. go ahead.
  • Ryan: defers. More awkwardness... (it's not that awkward. people are just trying to be polite)
  • Ryan enters the stack
  • lxpk = didn't we already approve board powers to execute leases a long time ago? (enter stack) lxpk, we are entering stack via "Chat" in Zoom. The short answer tho is: There is some disagreement about what *exactly* we consensed on in the past.(Thanks, I entered stack on zoom now. I was present for the original consensus meetings, I can clarify for anybody who wasn't present anything beyond the wording of the resolution.)

More discussion about who should talk about what.

Nthmost saves what the topic is. Context of fiat powers is the move.

Kinnard can comment: I think that...ym.. Tyler hit on it. The special way that NB has of working is special to what makes it NB and not a dirty wework, and its... and I don't think it makes sense for the community to kill itself cause of a crises, NB can surmount many crisis because of the special way of working, because of our energy and difference and special... (If I were a member) I would block this fast track consensus thing. That is all I have to say.

  • Nthmost: I got kicked off. Did Kinnard finish?
  • Noah: Yes
  • Nthmost: We don't even need to conses to go to such a place as 272 Capp because it is great! And the alternative is terrible. A place that can't be NB. So if someone has a solution for staying it needs to work. And the option for somehwere else is going to take work for the solution and the only solution so far is 272 Capp (Yay! ). So I don't understand why we need to even consensus this it makes so much sense, community self trust, and preserve NB's way of doing things... And we can come to the right decision.
  • Dave B: a couple of quick poiints: It is easy to come up with teh situation where some kind of fiat power is necessary. Like Tyler is doing some last minute thing, and has to find a contractor or whatever, kind of like a bit far fetched but oyu could sort of imagine unforceseen things coming up qucikly,, but if we don't need to do it , let s not, but if we want to add security to fiat power, lets buid a thing where it has to be re-uped every week or somethign like that, that is an easy thing to add to such power. OK, I am done.
  • lxpk: The rise up chat is more reliable, why are we using group chat?

Chant: ryan talk. Ryan: OK Iw will.. wherei s the chat though? In the rise up? Where is the chat? Bottom-right corner.YAYY!

Ryan: When it comes to moving, .... [abducted by lizards] <---

  • ryan goes silent*

Is he frozen. Corona? The virus? *general wonder*

Someone will dMM him. to connect. in case he can't tell

Ryan here my computer just crashed I was just going to say that we

Nthmost: Alex?

Alex (lxpk): I was present at all the consensus meeting when we approved fiat powers for the lease? What is in dispute since it was just meant to be the lease and only for the timliness and sensitiveness of lease matters...they would have the power to do certain things and certain things they would have to bring into consesus ...but ...um.. we already had the wording in place. Don't read it out loud! !! paste it~ Yeah! All the logic still applies the only kind of emergency powers that seemed necessary are the timlieness for lease processes with landlords that might jeopardisze the deal... and they should be able to execute the lease process.

Mark: Ambugiuity arises due to 2069 lease.

lxpk: I see, it only is for the present.

lxpk: Lease is competive. We should move fast. And if we have small c. Lets just go with the previous wording and do this deal.

<confusion about which consensus item, from 2018 or 2019?>

lxpk: To clarify does someone want to block fiat power?

Noah: Something about the history of fiat power not having all the right wording. It is totally possible I missed somehting. If I am wrong I will withdraw. I don't think there is any general fiat power for such things that already/still exists.

Nthmost: right.

Kinnard: I think renewing the lease is very different from moving. I am not in real estate but I think the conditions will improve for leasing..*unclear*

Nthmost: You'll think they'll improve for 2169, or anywhere?

Kinnard: Both cases.

...*more talk around technicalities of consensus*


James: Problem with the zoom chat is it disappears if you disconnect...

This is Noah: Putting a general offer out to revoke [this consensus item] if there is agreement that this is unnecesarry

https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Consensus_Items_History

Consensus item from 2018-03-06:

  1. The board officers of Noisebridge may enter into loan agreements, building purchase negotiations, and lease negotiations in the interest of acquiring a suitable building to be our permanent home. This authorization lasts until a permanent home has been secured, or until Noisebridge has either renewed the 2169 Mission St lease or signed a new lease.
  2. The Board Officers shall keep a log of non-sensitive information stemming from the authorizations above to be published as a “note” on the #the-board, a Noisebridge wiki page, and the Noisebridge discuss mailing list, at a minimum interval of every 2 weeks.
  3. In the event that a purchase or lease decision is required in under two weeks, a special meeting may be called with at minimum 24 hours notice to form a special consensus on the lease or purchase decision. The meeting will occur at Noisebridge and provide a mechanism (e.g. Google Hangout) for remote participation. A link will be provided to remote in the 3 channels described above.
  • Random: Rents are going to go way down across SF in the next 2 months.
  • Wheezy: So rent is going down? in SF? ? ?
  • Kinnard: There is a lot of reasons to expect rents to go down because of the black plague in Europe and it was transformative for the lower classes
  • *general wondering*
  • Wheezy: Do those transfer to now.
  • Random: Recession is coming no one wants to be in SF
  • Spanish Flu? Etc.. ?
  • Tyler: Ppl may sell instead of lower rent... we can't say that rent will decline for sure.
  • Someone: Interest theory but not sure.
  • Alex: these are people who leave buildings vacant for years rather than rent at low prices
  • Wheezy: We would all love for rent to go down.
  • Someone: Negotiation better rent?
  • Alice: 10 year lease when rent could go down, so not in our best interest.... if rents do go down...
  • Paul_H: Question is if this will be long lasting recession. 272 Capp rent is already quite cheap (relative to the mission). I think the landlord has already taken into account COVID-19 situation. We'll wait till May 1 and see how situation unfolds.
  • *auto mute self since off topic*

Taeer: 3 points.

Point #1 has sort have been addressed: Dichotomy between the Consensus process we have now, and giving fiat power to the Board members; there's a lot of area in between. Like, bringing Consensus items with 24 hours' notice and accelerating things that way, or giving powers to other specific persons than the Board.

lxpk: Text of 2018 emergency consens looks like it applies, does it not?

Ryan: It has passed (we got a lease), but should we bring it back?

Dave B: If it applies, and perhaps it shouldn't... but the majority seem to think it doesn't apply. So lets be careful of things we leave open like that.

lxpk: But Ryan thinks that was for the 2018 lease and that is gone now. So the old text is good right?

  • (Taking break, someone else plz type)*

Noah: because of COVID-19, we are inviting some long-lost couch sitters who could block. If we don't think that's a real possibliity, or we're willing to risk it, then that would be okay. That's why i propsed what i did.

Tyler: I have a question... (someone else: **HUGE SNEEZE** sorry i'll mute myself) Beyond idea of signing a lease, there are other decisions that will need to be made. Hiring a plumber - will this be big C concensus, or do we just not have a bathroom?

Noah: procedure as I've written it, is carte blanche for the Board for the duration. That's different from previous proposal, which is only about lease. take that as you will, but that's a difference

Nthmost: History - when we moved into 2169, people just did stuff, what needed to be done. Sometimes people talked about things at meetings. Went around asking for 20$ bills and went and bought stuff. During reboot, we raised $30k and had to hire contractors... not so concerned about who was making the decisions, just getting things done quickly. This time around, i think we have more time to worry about such things. Board is not a board of experts. Not elected as such. Just to be a thin layer of legality against the Like a buffer against the external world. Just to take responsibilty for shit that takes place to / within noisebridge. Premise is "all responsibility;no power" They are not experts for anything. Treasurer and secritary do not need to be on the baord. They develop or already have expertise. What makes me deeply uncomfortable to just make decisions. They don't necessarily have the expertise to make contracting decisions, and right now they do not have that.

Noah: so who does:?

Nthmost: Jarrod...he is licensed architect. Only person in NB who should be making these decisions.

Noah: So it is not that hte board are the only ppl making choices? The way it is written is that it is the deciding poower. The board can say we defer and rubber stamp. *more on wording* Alternative is (1) we elect people for specific things. this is time consuming. or (2) i just pick poeple. that's worse. I don't want to be choosing that. This seemed to me like the lesser of evils. Not necessarily the best choice, just the best I could come up with for temporary fiat.

Dave.... .... ... . Tyler: Dave you're muted.

Dave: apologies. Clarification: are board and _M_embers the same thing?

  • Tyler and Ryan: No.
  • David: Then big M members make decision.
  • Tim: yup. That is how it goes. They are making choices. It is dope. So there you go. There are even people on the board who are not * philanthropists or members.
  • Nthmost: ~~breaking up~~ ~~cutting out~~
  • Taeer: "Maybe we should turn off video"
  • Noah: this works differently than jitsi
  • Tyler: I like my flaschen taschen background too much.
  • Tyler: *refuses to turn off screen* I like my flaschentaschen background too much.
  • Dave: Chnge to members and nullify issues
  • Noah: So changes to members does nullify it, which is fine, so um...
  • LXPK: 24hr member decision process. So if you want to like make a best of both worlds. Alleviate concerns.
  • Noah: I have no issues wih that whatsoever. With the caveat that Covid. Randos hearing we are going to moe and freafking out.
  • Dave: so to move forward. Both sides Outline the worst case. Find a middle point.
  • Noah: sure...Be clear: I am not defending this because I fully believe in everything I will pretend to champion it if that is ok?
  • Dave: I would expect nothign less. adversarial system is best in this situation.
  • Nthmost: We have to come up with different systems for this situation (referring to online meeting)
  • Ryan: Same hting as commenting right now. I like the 24 hr emergency meeting system for big M memebrs. The things is we can overrule a member that blocks... if someone blocks and that block is ignored that peson is fine leaving
  • Nthmost: super backwards & dangerous way to state it.
  • Ryan: Please state it better
  • Nthmost: We don't overrule blocks. What happens if someone puts up a block it means we have to discuss it more. That means it is dangerous to enter a consensus process.
  • Ryan: OK, afeter 3 years of meetins, a block is a person being fine with leaving hte psace. that is the amount of effort in ablock
  • NThmost: sort of. I rememer talking about it that way, with ppl exptrapolating kcing someone out.
  • Dave: to me as it was explained, you only block something if it would make you leave
  • *general yeahs*
  • Nthmost: that doesn't mean we can overrul a block, not what we are doing her
  • Ryan: ok sorry... yeah.. ok sorry
  • Nthmost I know
  • Ryan: yeah.. thanks
  • Noah.... .... correlary. : :: :: : : :: :: :: :: : : Infinite power for all Members. vs. limited with small number...
  • *bewilderment insues...*
  • Nthmost...Social hazard to put up a block
  • Noah: ....
  • Nth: sure.....
  • Noah: relative power dynamics...
  • Noah: these are deep things. we can smoke a joint and hash this out over... other things.
  • Mark - lets Move forward

Taeer: #2 It might be the case that this belongs in a different conversation; if so, we should table it. One of the talking points has been that there's no alternative proposal to moving to 272 Capp. I'm not saying this is a good option, but it would be remiss if as an anarchist collective, we didn't discuss direct action, refusing to leave and shutdown. Again, don't know if that's a good option; the state has lots of power. But maybe worth discussing. But it's more about whether we move or not, less about this proposal, so maybe better as a separate discussion.

  • Alice: We are moving. No choice. Same page. This is over. We are moving.
  • Kinnard: Or we can buy the building. A lot up in the air right now. The numbers are well into being possible.
  • Someone: Can we move on already?
  • Noah: Will withdraw this and resubmit it for another week hence.
  • lxpk: Competing wording proposal to be hashed out in chat.
  • Noah: *officially revokes proposal. will chat offline. not sure if he can do that. wonders if he has the power to revoke.*
  • people say it is ok*
  • *general mumbling about moving on*
  • *more clear wording about moving on*

Kinnard: Quick points: the whole point of crypto crowd raise. Trying to buy building. Thinks it is possible. Wants to push forward with it. Has been working on it for months. Expertise in place. Innovation. Smart contract. Leading first crowd raise. Helping build this. Whole point is to build a system to do-ocratically do treasury management. Stuff around maintenence in the system which would be built called a "DAO" Decentralized autonomous organization. Doo-ractic way of working specific to NB. And manage those resources. Gonna try raise the funds to buy the building, but if we end up moving that is the system to. but the system would be new and let ppl block funding ideas and would be rate controlled by blocking, and would be fully doocractic in that sense and can explain that in more depth and how smart contracts let you do this easily, and we have engineers who have impleted this tech. I originally evisionsgoing to other hackers spaces to promote this. But with covid19 that is tough, but I think it is feasible to raise the money to buy the building. Check out #noisedao channel on slack and NBremain there are ppl who want to stay at 2169 mission, so it is not over yet

Ryan: More critical stuff, take this offline, lets move on.

Wheezy: super quick. Lets not worry right now.Ppl wnat to stay, some want to leave. Lets move on. Either way. This is making everything delayed... fucking pandemic move on!

lxpk: Here's a modified version of the 2018 consensus item that worked to get us through a lease renewal with building improvement contracting added:

Consensus item for 2020-03-17:

  1. The board officers of Noisebridge may enter into loan agreements, building purchase negotiations, and lease negotiations and building improvement contracts in the interest of acquiring a suitable building to be our permanent home. This authorization lasts until a permanent home has been secured, or until Noisebridge has either renewed the 2169 Mission St lease or signed a new lease.
  2. The Board Officers shall keep a log of non-sensitive information stemming from the authorizations above to be published as a “note” on the #the-board, a Noisebridge wiki page, and the Noisebridge discuss mailing list, at a minimum interval of every 2 weeks.
  3. In the event that a purchase, lease or building improvement decision is required in under two weeks, a special meeting may be called with at minimum 24 hours notice to form a special consensus on the lease or purchase decision. The meeting will occur at Noisebridge and provide a mechanism (e.g. Google Hangout) for remote participation. A link will be provided to remote in the 3 channels described above.

Taeer: #3 [withdrew]

Kinnard: Whole point of crypto-crowdraise is to buy the building, and I still think it's entirely feasible. Been working on this for months, have people with deep expertise including in smart contracts, led the first crowdraise on top of Etherium, and the whole point is to build a system where we can do-ocratically do treasury management. So everything we've been talking about, like how do we decide if there's a plumber who'll work on this or that, we'll have a system called a DAO: Decentralized Autonomous Organization.

So we'll implement do-ocracy in software to manage the resources that Noisebridge has. Tying it back to the first point, I'm going to raise the money with the intention of buying the building, but if the community do-ocratically decides to use the funds raised to do something else, that's how it's meant to work. So you can pull from the treasury for something that you want to do, and people can block some things, but the rate and amount you can pull would be rate-controlled by blocking. Fully do-ocratic in that sense; can explain in more depth in how smart contracts let you do something like this.

We've got engineers who work at blockchain companies who've implemented this in big ways working on it. Originally envisioned traveling to other hackerspaces, including other countries, to advocate for this, which is up in the air because Cylons, but I think this is feasible.

There's also a group of people, if you check out the NoiseDAO and the NB-Remain channel on the Slack, those are people in favor of staying at 2169. So I think there isn't little-c consensus on moving.

Ryan: Requests to take this offline, onto Slack/Discuss.

Wheezy: Focus on COVID-19. Everything's getting delayed because of the pandemic, so let's move on to that.

Proposals from last week [edit | edit source]

(Add any items which are consensed upon or someone has raised a principle objection for to the Consensus Items History page.)

Proposals for next week [edit | edit source]

(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)

Discussion[edit | edit source]

Discussion item 1[edit | edit source]

Pandemic/shelter-in-place[edit | edit source]

Aditya (NinjaA): Before this meeting, I read the order, including essential and non-essential businesses. Noisebridge could shoehorn into a couple of the essential categories. Working on open-source ventilators, printing masks, etc., should continue at Noisebridge, and you could work on something at home but want to work at Noisebridge, you should be able to come in at your own risk.

   here is the sf ordinance https://www.sfdph.org/dph/alerts/files/HealthOrderC19-07-%20Shelter-in-Place.pdf
   Noisebridge can stay open IMO as long as there's signage saying people stay 6 feet apart, and disinfecting of surfaces take place
   these categories:

- Educational institutions—including public and private K-12 schools, colleges, and universities—for purposes of facilitating distance learning or performing essential functions, provided that social distancing of six-feet per person is maintained to the greatest extent possible; - Businesses that supply products needed for people to work from home; - xv.Businesses that supply other essential businesses with the support or supplies necessary to operate - Lots of Open Source COVID-19 hardware hacking will take place and should take place at Noisebridge

Tyler: Alice is our legal rep and has a lot of good info on this that would be from a more legally-grounded perspective.

Alice: I don't want to dismiss this contribution, and I appreciate the categories, but want to speak to the spirit and overall intent of the Order.

The Order has teeth. It creates civil and criminal penalties for failure to comply. Most specifically, the provisions are very direct in limiting the activities of businesses—including non-profits.

So Noisebridge is under the Order. So is it within one of the listed exceptions?

One argument is that NB is an educational institution. But if you read the remainder of the text, it's a bit of a stretch.

[missed this part]

The upshot is: Noisebridge has to be closed. Those limited activities can be carried out only within the purpose of the Order. The open-door policy, etc., are not under the intent of the Order.

That's my read of the Order; I'm open to debate about that.

Are there activities that need to occur at NB regardless of these limitations that would be permissible under the Order? One example was packing.

Those are conversations you might want to have, but the broader purpose of Noisebridge is not available and it is a limited purpose exception that is being identified.

I want to be the bearer of bad news, because no-one else wants to be: Bad politics if Noisebridge appears to keep its doors open after the regulatory issues that have come up with Noisebridge.

No-one else has an open-door policy for their offices. The rest of the world won't really appreciate this as a wonderful thing, but just see it as another vector of infection during this shelter-in-place.

The ugliest truth is that keys may need to be turned off remotely, and enabled case-by-case. I know nobody wants to have this conversation. But we have to think about public perception during fundraising, and our relationship to the City as we address legal issues, and safety of the public as a whole.

  • general thanks all around*


Dave B: Agree 100%; we should just be closed. One counter thing I woudl say to umm.. the idea that we should you know..keep going like keeping things, like you know doing open source activities to fight covid, like ... how much of that has to be *inaudbile* how much has to be in person... how much can be remote? Like send an ambasador ... to 3d print... no reason to be in person

Kinnard (in the chat): Food growing has to happen in person.

Tim: Direct respnsoe. I agree... because of fire code, NB is pretty much a living room... how muich liability do the board members have? what happens if someone gets sick? What happnes to the board members? possible death. Lets consider closing the space down.

Alice: I think closing the space down has already happened. I think ppl are self policing. Though randos are still coming in. No offense to those ppl. I think it is closed dow. But it is really he method that you effect that is really the question. and the decision the board has to make is not to close it down. cause i think the board will communicate don't go to NB. unless you fulfill one of the exceptions et.c... coudl be an issue as a practical matter if you don't communcate it in the right way, more what w are dealing with that hte method financial penalities for each infraction... liek the law firm ocnisders would happen; so it would be a # of ppl x penalty cash... = to the city daily basiis entites can be held criminal liability to the the ...ymm.. ppl? board? Negligence... If you sue someone because they killed your wife in a car crash...you'd point out the laws they violated... . ...to establish criminal negligence. because they were negligent... they didn't take care. wrongful death. You might be liable... gross negligence. Wrongful death. Worst case scenario. Incredible unlikely to prove covid was transmitted at NB. But we do need to be focused on optics and safety of community as a whole and keep that in mind.

Noah: quick clarification. Only status: I made a post on slack to say it is effectively closed. No board member has posted anything saying it's closed.

Keiarra: really important. One of the ppl that came to the meetup that I host diclosed that one his roommates was diagnosed with corona. Like bunkbeds High likely hood that he has been exposed and was at meetup last week. in NB? So points are valid. hmm so take precautions.

  • general sighs*

Nthmost: Asymptomatic transmission is absolutely happening

        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Tim: that is a liability. This is gnarly. I want to see NB shut down. No tools anyway. Only living room function. I am wonderring how everyone feels about shutting down for 3 weeks.

  • many ppl say agree*

Kinnard: Been researching requirements for essential infrastructure designation. Been talking to SFFD, SFPD, etc.

Appears there is not one specific process. Multiple processes depending on what type of essential infrastructure you are.

In addition, just noting: Folks are unaware of several points where Noisebridge must act positively. Folks are thinking of minimizing liability, but NB has resources that I think would be irresponsible to let them lie fallow when we could help abate the crisis.

Of course there are risks, but there are always risks. Enumerated some, but there are many more.

One is we are growing food at Noisebridge, in order to help people who are food-insecure. That is something explicit in the Order; if you're providing support services to people in need.

We can provide essential communication infrastructure, like radio [something].

There have been many requests for people to make things at NB that are directly able to abate some of the shortages of different types of equipment, some life-preserving, things like masks.

There's a link to the open-source COVID response group on Facebook.

Ryan set up Folding@Home computers (running covid-19 protein folding).

NB can help make essential repairs, such as bike repairs.

Nthmost: It is 10:30pm. We've been trying to do this difficult thing for 2.5 hours.

Kinnard: Second-to-last point. Just an example of many, lot of critical infra workers who've been asked to operate commute by bike, which is important for social isolation compared to public transit or Uber/Lyft.

If every bike shop is closed and Kaiser is seeking bike repair work, that's an example of capacity we can contribute.

I'm heading up crisis response in my neighborhood and organizing. I'm working on growing food at the CryptoCastle. We're now equipped to grow over 20 varieties of food thanks to Keiarra. But the setup is not complete; we needed to come to NB today to finish the setup at the CryptoCastle.

Someone: There's a thread on Discuss.

Tim: Most tools we're not supposed to use anyway.

Noah: If you brought all that up in front of a medical community or the City, you'd be inviting so much trouble for Noisebridge. We cannot do what you just said.

Tim: UCSF, who has innumerable non-medically-necessary staff relevant to this: They're shut down.

Robert: I think we should officially close Noisebridge for a week, just to be part of the Community.

I also think we should do something, not sure how. Not sure what, nor how, but something's going to happen. Come to CHM.

Ryan: Lower access tokens so you have to ask on Slack for access to the space and give a reason, just so we don't have people going in and out. I have noticed things going missing in the past few days, when no-one's around, and if we don't physically lock up NB, I wouldn't be surprised if when we go back, half our stuff is gone.

Nthmost: Just because there's no eyeballs on anything.

Ryan: I posted on Slack that stuff has gone screwy, missing, etc. But do think someone in #rack should take down general access tokens to a degree, and probably Philanthropist ones, so you have to message someone to get it readded for like a two-hour period.

Also we could go back to people who have physical bottom-door keys. I know a number of people here who are trustworthy have the physical bottom-door key, whereas the upper-door key hasn't worked in a long time from what I can tell.

I want to hear people's opinions of how we close up. I know a number of people who don't have internet at home and just want to use NB's internet, but that's not reason to jeopardize NB, jeopardize getting a misdemeanor charge, jeopardize our lease, jeopardize our Board, etc. There is so much at stake right now that even if NB can help, unless we are designated as critical infra, we should be pretty much locked out.

Kinnard: I think while responsible trying to constrain who is the space we should actively pursue critical infrastucture designation.

Wheezy: I'm in favor of disabling the RFID access. Never know.

Someone: In agreement with Ryan. Someone: me too

Mark: roy wants to say things. They might have left

  • kay*
  • who is next discussion

Dave B: One thing I will say is that I think we need to just have someone at the space, just for security. Or as an option we turn on cameras and stream them. As another option. I know we said we don't do that. but in this case no one should be there anyway. But leaving it no one there. And relying on physical security is a mistake.

Robert: I can totally break into the space, meaning that we need someone making regular visits


Dave B: That's it. Paul H: I agree with Dave.

James: Does this things work? Great. Hey guys and gals and everyone else Someone: JAmmmesssss James: I think it is important to remember that our space is to be closed till april 7th. That is what the city has told us. That is what we should do. If we care about the space lets close till april 7th. And earlier when a meetup participant was exposed to covid19. That is terrible and a reason not to have the space open. And if you do get exposed. Please tell ppl. (Loudly and clearning and everywhere) and then stop exposing yourself. Only way. Assume you are sick and infecting others. Really important. The culture we need to have going on. I ahven't said much. Assume the worst. Take care of yourself and lets be closed and revoke all tokens. And be sure we survive this . That is all.

Nthmost: Only hting I was trying to say is that every single person should assume they are sick. Only way that it owrks. So much is assymtomatic. Half the ppl could be sick.

boredzo: And even if you're not symptomatic, you could be in two weeks.

Someone: you could also have no symptoms but also be a carrier.

NThmost: don't wait to feel sick. You can still spread it.

Keiarra: --- *

  • waiting for unmute of mic*
  • general wonder about hearing her*

Keiarra: OK. Somebody mentioned me. What is up? .. ok so one of hte things I have been thinknig a lot about . I have a lot of food plants at NB. Community can eat at will. Whenever. 70 plants. All edible. Most can be harvested now. If we are closing. Especially quickly. I would like more food insecure members to get the food. If you can go buy food. Not you. Just ppl who need food. Don't be shy. I am literally doing this for ppl like you. Come get the food so it doesn't rot. Also I will need a place to keep the hydroponic farm till this blows over. I Do not have space in my house at all. Going to ask around. If no one I know has space, so if anyone in NB community can host a hydroiponics systme that would be appreciated.

boredzo: James asks how much space, and is it expensive to run?

Keiarra: 2 ft by 4 ft in ground and floor space, 9 ft tall. And it can be taken apart and transported pretty easily.

Kinnard: This is somethign that is an exception. Providing services to the poor and needy. While ppl are clearing out grocery shelves and ppl out of work. So it is wrong and irresponsible to stop growing food that could abate food prices.... putting in someone's home as oppsed to NB seems wrong. Crypto castle maybe, but maybe not.

Tyler: I appreciate the spirit of the argument you're making here. But the hydroponic thing is cool, but it is not that much food. One person's one day of lettuce ration. It is cool, but it is not enough to claim we are a public facility to provide food for the needy.

Keiarra: not asking to stay open just for hydroponics. Looking for alternative should we close. but please do use the food if you need it. Will need help of someone with a car to transport and/or host these plants

Noah: We will arrange for transport. Continue conversation on Discuss.

Noah: I just want to ... so this is a not a short run thing. A couple of ppl say a week or 2, but it is almost certainly much longer that most ppl think. We are talkign in the best case 2 months.. (coupl-a months) going to loosen up arfter a while, but it is likely very long term, but don't treat it as short term. immediatley close, but also longer term thing. City ordniance is realted to th e city and local community. the exceptions are not going to fly and are dangerous. ...

Jehan: I wantd to say that: I hear the security. and not relying only on physical security... but I do think... I am not a lawyer... but I do think if one person is in the space at a time, then there is no real risk...as long as you don't touch surfaces etc... some arragnement,,,through online... etc... slack... where ppl could be given approval... one at atime... Alice: Legal liability...if we left noisebridge open... members could be liable for ... robust system to allow just one person...what would...pretext of being in...could they then let ppl in...is that *trepsass?* would they be liable./??/

Alice: This is trespassing... generally an exception.... So the set of businesses allowed to stay open, and the set of activities allowed to continue. The idea that Jehan just raised of one person at a time. If plants need to be watered, that can be addressed. My office has someone to come in and make sure the printer that takes 20 minutes to turn on can be turned on. But you have to be extremely careful how you go about it, have to be making very limited exceptions.

I have to go because I have to go to a hospital tomorrow morning, and I'm nervous about it. So, urges the remainder of the conversation to focus on process. Have something in place to keep the place secure. Keep the community from entering the space...and address the essential activities that ppl have raised in this meeting. Sorry to not stay longer. ... any last questions?

  • everyone says thank you to Alice*

Jehan: Kinnard posted in the chat about a cap of 12 people in the space at a time. IANAL but that seems like a bad idea for transmission reasons and City reasons.

Wheezy: Lock up NB until April 7!

Tim: Thanks Alice!

Tyler is leaving cause his computer is dying. Tim: I am out too James: No reason to be in the space.

Taeer: That's interesting that it can make sense for *an individual* to be in the space for specific purposes.

James: No one is more important than everyone.

  • general agreement*
  • tacit approval*

Somone: how about one person

  • general sighs*

Relay: Anything that we could convince the state is mission critical?

  • general no's*

Kinnard: Created a list with several cases which apply to the exisitng order. Ppl doing stupid things like the printer. *general maintenance* Taeer: The Order is targeted at orgs that do things at scale. NB does not do things at scale; we do hobby projects. Kinnard: My point is that we have capacity to help. With requests etc..., it's important that we maintain the capacity that we have as a community, and be able to scale up. James: We cannot scale up. We must close, per the city

Someone: How are we going to restrict access to the space? Who is in charge?

Gabriel: Can we move this dicussion to be just... to just shutting down the space? Revoking all tokens? unless for exceptions to be discussed on the slack? Ryan: I can do it tonight

  • generally no resistance*
  • General consensus to disable the tokens*

Ppl want to save the plants Someone wants a stronger, new lock that no-one else has keys to to deal with people having existing keys... (code?) lock... Time limit.(and helping spray/clean the space as they leave?) Someone: We want to keep a 1 person at a time...And if we trust them with a key, then we trust them to be excellent

  • physical key discussion*

Nthmost: I have a big bag of physical keys for the front gate but you need a key for the top lock. Gabriel: How many ppl do you think could get in with the physical key? Nthmost: just 3 ppl have a key to top lock Someone: Then it is a non-issue At that time, we were closing teh space. Nthmost: MMhmmm Alex: issue is that most ppl know how to pick... so most ppl know how to break in Wheezy: Yeah I've picked the top lock before, just practicing. Alex: problem is someone who wants ot break in to steal stuff Someone: You can basically come in from 3am till whenever...10am. and steal stuff... So how is it different? Someone: How about a camera? Having a camera woudl be good: Someone: LEts get a big ass lock instead NThmost: I am running out of steam Dave B: Who objects to a camera? ...someone: generally historical objections. ...*camera talk Someone: The reason to not have a camera is privacy reasons, which is not an issue if nobody's supposed to be in the space. Robert: Camera can help prove we are not liable. Robert: Camera proves that we were closed

Gabriel: Two issues. One is legal liability and community responsibility to close the space; the other is security of the space. For the former if we make an initial best effort of closing the space by, e.g., closing tokens right now, there's a larger conversation to be had about physical security, but that's not a public health concern.

lxpk: Agreed.

Gabriel: Ryan, can you do that this evening?

Ryan: The plants will be fine for a couple of days. The people who want NB to stay open for doing stuff, can they spend the next 3–4 days getting us those, whatever we need to show the City that we are critical infra? Until we have those, I'm pretty sure tonight, I'm going to put the padlock on the front door, and disable the lower token-access thing because if we get past those, the upstairs won't be that much of an issue and I don't want someone breaking the upstairs door lock if they do get through the lower ones.

We also have seven more cameras we can hook up to our camera setup and I know where they all are. I can set those up, but would rather do those at a different time.

Tomorrow, NB should close for all intents and purposes while we discuss this on Slack and everyone else, and people can call me up if they want me to come and unlock the front door. Also, I think I know where another key is for the lock; I can give it to someone else.

Kinnard: Will continue to do research and move as fast as possible, and prioritize getting designations based on the impact we can have to abate what's happening. Great if other people can help with this.


Noah needs to go. Everyone cheers to go*

Mohammed: Whoever wants to close NB...doesn't go to the space; they're sitting at home with their Wi-Fi. Lots of ppl really need it. Lets keep it open for them! That is what Noisebridge is about. Today we are closing it, keeping new ppl out. Only 5 ppl there. Awesome. Everyone. It was great. So it is still working. Please keep it open for ppl who really need it now more than ever! Noah: I got to go Mohammed: No this is important. Please don't close.

  • ppl want this brought up earlier

Mohammed: Did not want to intefere in the discussion of moving, but if we're talking about closing the space, I will interfere. Very important right now. No one person can close it. It belongs to the community. This is a a crucuial time to be open.

  • ppl breaking in

discuss.noisebridge.info is a great place to make sure all of the argument can bee seen.


Nthmost: Today there was social distance. It was fine. And I walked away thinking it was managable. But Alice (laywer) pressed that there could be trouble if the space is still open

Mohammed: We are not open to the public. We are closed today. Ppl who are there everyday can protect the space. Will take care of the space.

Alex: we decided to close the space. Please discuss this on slack or discuss.

Mohammed: I have a class to teach tomorrow at 4!

Alex: space will be closed Mohammed: who are you to decide this? Kinnard opposed what you said. James: I encourage you to read Alice's notes above. Kinnard: Most emergency response professionals were encouraging and positive to us staying open and being needed. IT is probably betetr to have ppl sheltered than out. He might be a minority, but a silent majority... Nthmost: he is not a silent majority Alex: we have a history of discouraging ppl to have it as a sole source of shelter or otherwise depending on it. A place they need. And can't live without it. We discourage that. Mohammed: We need Noisebridge in this corona virus outbreak. We need it, you don't. You have wifi, etc...

Alex: Meeting is ending. We will discuss on slack.

  • more energized discussion around showing the space is needed and can't close*
  • ppl signing off*

General talk about closing the space. Ppl signing off.

  • general thanks
  • meeting still going
  • arguments about who yelled or didn't yell
  • some touches of yelling


Malik- it sounded like aididid someone just dropped my name from the Stack? (Roy) >> Nevermind I think, goodnight. Okay. Goodnight. (This is Roy): I may sound like a jerk here. But I just learnt after 2.5 hours I can be ignored. Shoot, sorry. We did not realize that you were actually here

   Roy(remote? No mic? Can you just type things and someone will say them)


lxpk: Proposed consensus item wording for next week:

Consensus item for 2020-03-17: Real-estate decisions decided by board ratified by 24 hour notice special member consensus

Real-estate decisions are time-sensitive and require an accelerated consensus process: 1. The board officers of Noisebridge may enter into loan agreements, building purchase negotiations, lease negotiations and building improvement decisions in the interest of acquiring a suitable building to be our permanent home. This authorization lasts until a permanent home has been secured, or until Noisebridge has either renewed the 2169 Mission St lease or signed a new lease. 2. The Board Officers shall keep a log of non-sensitive information stemming from the authorizations above to be published as a “note” on the #the-board, a Noisebridge wiki page, and the Noisebridge discuss mailing list, at a minimum interval of every 2 weeks. 3. In the event that a purchase, lease or building improvement decision is required in under two weeks, a special meeting may be called with at minimum 24 hours notice to form a special consensus on the lease or purchase decision. The meeting will occur at Noisebridge and provide a mechanism (e.g. Google Hangout) for remote participation. A link will be provided to remote in the 3 channels described above.

Discussion item 2[edit | edit source]

Low Priority: Dave would like to have an open ended discussion of internet based:)educational directives in a Post-COVID world

[discussion item 3][edit | edit source]

What do we want to talk about? Take suggestions for topics here:

   * 1 Can Noisebridge order more Raspbery Pi's
   * 2 Getting a walkthrough done for the new space w/ Jarrod and a contractor?
   * 3 Circuit Hack



Small c consensus Acceptance of space closure for at least a week to help create a sense of urgency: Robert CHM. Mark: 3 weeks it should be, as that is how long the city ordinance is currently in effect for. < yes.


End of Meeting[edit | edit source]