Meeting Notes 2020 05 19
Scroll DOWN, past all this, past pre-meeting, and to "Main Meeting"
These are the notes from the The 579th Meeting of Noisebridge.
help take notes at - https://pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting
video meeting on zoom at - https://us02web.zoom.us/j/972291454
- Date: May 19 2020 for free
- Note-taker: Everyone, but primarily boredzo
- Pre-Meeting Moderator: Pyconaut
Moderators: Pyconaut, x
- 1 Meeting Summary
- 2 Pre-Meeting
- 3 Main Meeting
- 3.1 Introductions
- 3.2 Short announcements and events
- 3.3 New Philanthropists
- 3.4 New Members
- 3.5 Financial Report
- 3.6 Fundraising Update
- 3.7 GuildMaster's Report
- 3.8 Consensus
- 3.9 continuation of last week emergency concensus item
- 3.10 Discussion Items
- 3.11 announcments
- 3.12 Closing words
- 4 End of Meeting
FILL OUT AT END OF MEETING AND SEND TO MAILING LIST One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary. TLDR what happened at the meeting:
- New philanthropists:
- New members:
- Consensus Items:
- Discussion Items:
Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.
(What does that mean? How does the Anti-Harassment Policy fit into this? Are we SURE we know what being Excellent is? This is an important and fundamental conversation at Noisebridge, so let's give it like 120 seconds.)
Excellence is about caring for yourself, others, the space, and the community, it is about calling out when you see something wrong, and being availble to help others. Being exccelent can be doing things like taking out the trash, fixing a broken machine, cleaning up one of the areas, etc. As long as you follow the one rule, you will be welcome at noisebridge. We also have a Strict antiharrasment policy, so if you are making people feel harrased through your actions, you will be asked to leave.
Everyone at Noisebridge is a participant at Noisebridge.
(What does that mean? How do you get a door key? Access to Slack, Discuss, etc?)
There are many ways to participate at noisebridge, this includes taking a class, teaching a class, giving a presentation, using our equiptment, etc. You can also do just about any project since we run on do-ocracy. But if you think that the action or project might disturb others, please go through small c concensus and ask the community before you take any actions. Once you come by for a bit and gain some trust from the community, you can ask for a 30 day access token which will get you in the noisebridge door from 10am to 11pm for 30 days (then it then needs to be renewed). You can also participate digitally through our different online systems- noisebridge slack noisebridge discuss noisebridge wiki noisebridge meetup
A Philanthropist at Noisebridge has earned enough trust from the community to open and close the space.
(What does that mean? What do we expect from Philanthropists? How do you become one? etc)
Once you come by for a while and have a lot of trust from the community, people might start asking if you want to become a philanthropist (you can also apply right away if you think the benefits are worth it). A philathropist is the next trust level after daytime access (30 day token) usually in escalating participation. You get 24/7 access during non plague times, pay some money (40 to 80 dollars), you must know how to open and close the space, give tours, and introduce new people to the space. We want you to be able to help more people be able to access the space, and be excellent! To apply you get a big M Member to sponnsor you, then you fill out a Plilanthropy pledge and read all the associated materials, then you come to a tuesday meeting to submit the application. During that meeting you will be questioned for a bit, and then if no one objectas to you being a philanthropist, you will become one.
Membership in Noisebridge entails community Trust in Consensus.
(What does that mean? What do we expect from Members? How do you become a Member? etc)
Big M Members are different from just being a member of the community, this is the highest trust level of the noisebridge community, it means that everyone in the community trusts that you would make good decisions about how noisebridge can move forward. This is an annoying bureocratic level of trust, as the only theoretical benefit is that you get to block big C concensus items, and vote on who we place on our board. To become one, you need to go through a four week process, where you fill out a membership form sponsored by two big M members. You bring it to a tuesday meeting where it is submitted, your membership will be discussed at that meeting, then at the next tuesday meeting your membership is discussed again and if it gets to concensus, you will be asked to leave the room while the members present decide if they want to block you or not, if no member blocks your membership application you become a member. For the next two weeks any big M member can retroactivly block your membership for any reason. If you get blocked figure out why, fix the issue and then reapply at a later time.
Consensus is how the Noisebridge Membership may change how Noisebridge works.
(How does Consensus work? What types of things are good for formal Consensus? What is small-c consensus? What is a "block"?)
concensus is the process by which things that can't be done through basic do-ocracy (things that affect others in the space.) It has two flavors, small c and big C. Small c concensus is the process where things that might cause slight issues in the space (events, big projects, moving rooms, etc), you just talk with the community before doing things. Big C concensus is the process by which action are taken at noisebridge that are to big, to expensive, or to critical to be done by small c concensus. These are things like Moving, spending a lot of money, or doing legal bureucratic garbage. This is a two week+ process where an item is propsed one week (if possible you should already have the item posted in draft concensus items, and the binder). At that meeting it will be discussed for a while, then the next week it will be discussed again, and if people feel confident, it will be brought up for concencus, and if no big M member blocks the consensus items it passes and becomes a Consensed item.
Guilds are how groups at noisebridge organize.
(What is a guild? How do you join one? etc)
Guilds are groups at noisebridge that rally around a common interest. Any group can create a guild by writing a Charter AND maintaining the group according to the metaguild guidelines: https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Guilds
Pre Meeting Discussion
TALK ABOUT YOURSELF HERE, ETC...
- Ryan (he/him) - exploring VR
- Ⅹ - Space Hacker #inspection
- Carl (he/him) - flaschen taschen hacking
- Tyler - oh nvm posted the right link
- Aaron - your future anarchist president of 2040
- boredzo (he/him) - sewing, 3D printing
- TJ (he/him) - robotics, learning AI
- Eli (he/him)
- Mark - Games and Guilds and Stuff
- Zach - oldschool noisebridger - hasn't been in a while due to elevator
- Gabriel - wood stuff and metal stuff mostly (and software)
- Robert (he/him) Code for personal useful hardware
Short announcements and events
60-second description per item in bulletpoint.
Noisebridge's assets broke $300k!
Come to CHM online only Every monday @ 7pm Start.
Five Minutes of Fame (5mof) 8p this Thursday
Pyconaut- Join me in VRCHAT (you can guess my name, pleasses message me somewear else to let me know who you are).
Pyconaut- Noisebridge joining Virtually Maker Faire.
Hello all I just got an email from the Make:team about their upcoming virtually maker faire on may 23, and asking if we want to present during it. I want to know what stuff all of you are interested in presenting at the event. I am still waiting to hear more from their team about how many things we can present, and already thought up a few proposals that I sent in my preliminary email.
I already started our application and just need to add projects and people to the application before I submit it. We might end up limited to a small number of projects, so if we get a lot of project proposals I'll create a voting form to allow people to decide what they want us to present.
Here is a Google form for filling out the project information: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdoYPbXMfxE1BSg_6b3MqK6O-AqAExxx0jPuQ1sBjORD8bPZQ/viewform?usp=sf_link And here is a form for people to fill out their own information: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc9SeTYSMZCLbEZLeiLaB4NG5r0rwiX2Stli5-fhDbexuSf0g/viewform?usp=sf_link
Here is what I emailed their team-
"Thank you so much for reaching out, I am quite interested and on behalf of Noisebridge would like to know more about what you all are planning on doing and how best Noisebridge could exhibit. I will let the Noisebridge community know about this and ask for our community to submit projects so I can add them to our application. What is the timeline for applications, and what is the limit for number of workshops, presentations, project demonstrations, etc. I am ecspecting that the linup of interested groups and presenters right now would be-
- Circuit Hacking Monday (workshop)
- Simbridge VR hackerspace project (presentation / demonstration)
- Our hydroponics group (presentation / demonstration)
- A brief history of the modern maker and hacker movement. (presentation)
- How does a hackerspace like Noisebridge Run? (Presentation)
- I'll also find out if any noisebridgers have projects they want to submit to the family maker camp.
Please get back to me by Friday if you want to be a part of the faire.
Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.
- Funds in bank: 308k in bank
197k cash 110k crypto still at 35% crypto
- Noisetor (See the bulletpoints at the bottom of http://noisetor.net/finances/#summary):
- Any other details by those participating in handling our financials
- The latest financial reports from the treasurer are available at https://discuss.noisebridge.info/c/finace/39
How's it all going
What is the current state of structural organization at Noisebridge? Guilds are a cool idea, lets make them a reality! https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Guilds
Mark: I will talk about the proposed guild system at this week's 5Minutes of Fame(5MoF)
- What guilds are active? (Read the active guilds from Guilds wiki page)
- (For each guild mentioned, ask if guild rep is present for a brief status update)
- Would you like to or start a guild? Checkout our guidelines or contact MetaGuild for help.
(Add any items which are consensed upon or someone has raised a principle objection for to the Consensus Items History page.)
continuation of last week emergency concensus item on Capp St. space location
Tyler: Updates on lease, no changes, waiting on updates from David, and clarification from landlord as to status of 5 year sprinkler certificiate
Tyler: Still looking in to details around zoning and occumpancy and specifics around uses. Once we get the sprinkler update, we've hit all the check boxes to move this forward.
Volunteer note takers, plz continue here...
- inspection efforts: Detailed Discuss thread available to those with Discuss accounts
Daily 4:44 meeting
bfb: Consensus item to sign lease for 272 Capp is on the wiki, it could be consensed at tnext Tuesday meeting or at an emergency Consensus meeting
x: We can consense it next Tuesday or provide 24-hour notice to hold a special Consensus meeting.
Are there any Members who have a blocking concern to express?
Kinnard: context changer: Efforts to start up PPE work in the space.
x: Not seeing the relevance of that to discussion of the lease on a new space.
Zach: Would like to hear more general updates
Zach: Would also like to have a discussion on: How can Noisebridge continue to operate remotely and do classes remotely?
Kinnard: This may be a lot of people's first meeting, so some folks might be a little bit lost.
x: Thanks; we'll circle back to that. The virtual aspect is new to all of us; pyconaut has generally been hosting a 7pm pre-meeting.
x: Last call for any expressions of blocks. We're not consensing it today, but would like to open the floor. Then we'll do some introductory aspects and then continue discussion.
Kinnard: I think now is really not the time to move. NB should re-orient itself toward remaining in its home it's had the majority of its life. Even if moving is the right decision, the amount of discontinuity and tumult in the community, and the biggest crisis in living memory, the community needs to move for continuity.
Moving would be the exact opposite of that. We should be able to have a regular meeting back in the space. Once the community has been able to re-coalesce, you can actually have a conversation around this that comes from communal integrity.
Rushing through this in the middle of the biggest crisis in living memory while we just had a board member resign and there's a new meeting format and things are broken in some ways, I don't think is a wise thing for the community to do.
Tyler: This is not a rushed process. The first meeting regarding this new location was several weeks before shelter-in-place started. We were reviewing leases on the basis that we can't stay in the current location due to ongoing difficulties with our landlord. This isn't something we cooked up in the last couple meetings; there were meetings in the space for a solid month before SIP, and continued meetings online through SIP as we've continued to pursue lease improvements.
bfb: Danny said a week or two ago something that outweighs continuity, which is certainty. We have uncertainty in the current location with the landlord; signing the lease at the new location will bring greater certainty to NB to grow in and mature as a community rather than continue to exist in this limbo.
I don't feel comfortable or safe staying in 2169 in the short or long term. I think the current pandemic has given us space and time to pursue a new space in an odd way, since we can't be evicted which previously seemed imminent.
Aaron: Agree with Kinnard that maybe we should have an in-person meeting if we really delay the Consensus and maybe get a more official vote, but I have a couple questions.
1. Maybe I'm just confused, but I just don't see how it could be that much of an obstacle to the community as a whole, since it's the next street over? Maybe it's because it's very dim in that area, or is it just because of the building itself or zoning, etc.? Maybe if we were moving to the other side of the City or another city, that would've been more impactful and detrimental to the community, but the next block over is a much easier transition, and it would help us.
2. Overall question: Has anyone criticized the location? I know Capp St. is really dim, not many street lights. If that's not a concern, not that big of a deal.
x: On capital-M Membership involvement, normally we'd talk more about that, but will specifically mention that how it relates to this is that Members will reach Consensus, which means no Member in good standing formally blocks the Consensus item.
Anyone involved in the community in any way has an opportunity to express their concerns, and Members can support the collective will of the community.
This is one of many interpretations. There's a common thread of Excellence balancing do-ocracy with respecting people's wishes.
The short history of the ability for Members to block is that it is a tool to be exercised only if the perceived change would mean that that Member no longer wishes to contribute and stay part of NB with that change.
Kinnard: I don't think entering into another lease solves the problem for NB. Expressed this to a NBer recently and he said “yeah, all landlords are assholes”. Thus far lanlord and building management have worked with us in good faith and set positive footing for a long term relationship, before, during and after pandemic.
A landlord can start the relationship very well, and it can start out in a good way, but you can end up in the end with a similar situation to our current situation.
I think what NB really needs to do to take that step to become a more mature community is shift that orientation and buy 2169.
If you think about what NB is and why it needs to pay its rent, and why we got $150k in Bitcoin, it's a landmark.
Given the circumstances, with the current landlord and the board member who primarily handled relations with the landlord resigning, it's a good time to take a pause and hold off something that adds more entropy like a move. Let the community re-coalesce.
On top of that, all factors are improving for NB. I spoke to a leasing agent regarding the CryptoCastle and his advice was delay, delay, delay because the market is turning to favor buyers.
Zach: I wanna first thank Kinnard for the courage to speak up on a big topic like this and speak some very good points and share what he's feeling. That perspective has been missing. I feel like I was evicted from NB a year ago [when the elevator went down], so I've missed a lot.
I think there's really good points from all sides of this conversation. The pandemic obviously has changed the housing market in really interesting ways. In so-called normal times, finding a venue that's wheelchair-accessible is hard, especially at that proximity and a reasonable price, so that's a huge incentive to go for it.
I think Kinnard makes a great point about how great it'd be to buy the space. AFAIK the landlord does not want to sell, and a lot of landlords have not wanted to sell in SF because the housing market was booming, and now it is not. That's something to investigate.
Finding out the virtual location of this meeting was not super easy, it was not well advertised, was not posted with the date, and if we want Consensus with something like this, like signing a lease, we need to advertise these meetings much better. It needs to be everywhere that these meetings are happening, this is why they're happening, this is where they're happening.
Lastly, as a wheelchair user, I've been really removed from this process, and I'm sure there are other disabled people who have been removed from this process. I'm disappointed that we weren't meeting virtually until there was a pandemic, and I hope we keep it up.
One last point: One thing I've been really concerned with all groups is that most all non-profits and activist-oriented groups have been practicing really lackluster safety precautions. For someone who's immunocompromised, that's extremely concerning. I would hope that if a move happens, social distancing and safety precautions would be much more closely followed. I'm concerned about the stories I'm hearing about the space being open and how lax people are being about this. I just posted a guide about the scientific evidence that shows how this virus is spread, and this virus is killing able-bodied, healthy people under the age of 20. Don't think that just because you're not elderly or disabled you're not going to die or get fucked up with lung damage.
We need to take precautions and set an example as a hacker community that we know how to support people with PPE and be safe.
x: Appreciate your feedback. Not a comment to Zach, who hasn't been able to be involved until now, but generally please be mindful of time.
Tyler: DR to Kinnard. We don't have the money to buy a building. We're not close. The owner of 2169 has said they're not interested in selling. So, not an option until we come up with a million dollars and convince the landlord to sell before we run out of time to sign the lease.
If the pandemic hadn't hit, we would've had the walls literally taken out of Noisebridge. Staying at 2169 is not an option, even legally. And based on the current state of the building not meeting fire code, it's illegal for us to operate any equipment or machinery beyond your laptop. It's not a usable space for people to build things or use tools.
To Zach, on meetings not being widely distributed: This is the third weekly meeting on this subject, and they've gone out to the email list, Discuss, and @everyones on Slack. So notifications have gone out, not so much for this meeting, but this has been an ongoing Consensus process for several weeks.
x: Anyone who didn't participate in the Consensus item in April, please review the Consensus Items History. We authorized a special Consensus process via a Consensus Item.
Aaron: Buying would mean a loan of $55/sqft, which is a $275k loan. Doesn't include capital fees, other fees like that.
x: We'd likely have to buy the whole building, not just the third floor, and have to convince the landlord to go for that.
bfb: I'll try to send out a link to this meeting more broadly. Acknowledging that we are participating in a big decision. A lot of folks are plugged into the email list but not Slack.
To Kinnard and Aaron: It just seems like a pipe dream to purchase the space, whereas the new space is a stepping-stone to the financial security to purchase a space in the future.
One thing we learned from applying for grants, the longer the lease, the greater the pool of money available to us, because it signals stability to the grant issuer. Our current situation is tenuous at best. Having a steady foundation with a ten-year lease, with a space that's just around the corner, seems more optimal for a sustainable future.
And, it is more accessible. No elevator needed to enter. It'd be excellent if we can figure out access to the second story.
Moving will be a pain in the ass, and it is more expensive, but that's about it.
Eli: I love Zach's comments, and think they're righteous. This is my first NB General Meeting, and it was quite challenging getting in. I had to dig and there was conflicting information on which meeting this was going to be in, up until the meeting started. If a big decision is to be made, it would be wise to more formally announce the meeting.
Kinnard: Agree with Zach, hoping that the virtual stuff continues. Also his point about this not being publicized well enough. So the process has broken down over the past several weeks, and it's obvious why: There is a global crisis going on. In that environment, I don't think that you'll be able to get, the corollary to what Zach was saying, the silent do-ocrats who are working in the space, such as Eli who's been working on PPE for UCSF, serving a critical need during this crisis, and there's a real distance between what happens in the NB meeting and what happens in the space. Jay, Ahmad who's been helping Eli.
When we are finally able to have an in-person meeting again, you'll get a fuller spectrum of the community. What I've observed over the past several weeks is that it's very wacky and it's reminiscent of the door situation when quarantine first started.
To Zach's other two points: I think we haven't, with Ruth resigning from the board and being the primary contact with the 2169 landlord and say you're about to lose your decade-long cash cow in the worst real estate market. We're about to sign a new lease. It's in your interest to come to the table and sign a new lease.
I've been working on a crypto-crowdraise …
x: Can we make that a separate discussion item, if it's about buying the space?
Kinnard: It's a DR to Zach, about buying the space. When we needed money for the sprinklers, we got a $150k-in-Bitcoin donation; imagine what a real campaign could do.
Zach: I really like the discussion going on here. This is obviously one of the most heated topics you could have, and we're not yelling at each other yet, and that's kind of amazing.
I've been so removed from this discussion that I can only put so much stock in what I'm gonna say here, but: I think Kevin really made some great points.
I didn't know Ruth left the board. That's big news; that really sucks; Ruth was awesome. If someone could tell me off-list, I'm interested in what happened. I don't use Slack.
Sudoroom managed to get a shit ton of money to buy their building for Omni Commons in Oakland, but their landlord was willing to negotiate. I know a lot of people have worked for a long time to find a suitable new space. I was in a meeting a year ago where a bunch of people proposed a bunch of really awful, inaccessible spaces.
The fact that people have found an accessible space around the corner that's even remotely affordable? That's a huge deal and I want to acknowledge the hard work that went into that.
I can appreciate both sides of this discussion, but have to go with what Kevin was saying. What Kinnard is saying is an ideal and I agree with it, but the reality is unfortunately that we kinda gotta get out of where we are. The fire code issues are jacked; the elevator is jacked; it's our responsibility under the lease to fix the elevator which is jacked.
Moving is a pain? The new space being around the corner is a lot better than a few miles.
Getting the word out is really vital and especially on the Discuss forum. It would be great if we had meetings posted: Meeting this date happening.
x: Also want to extend appreciation for helping me keep this meeting productive. It's 9pm; this conversation could go well past 10. pyconaut will be next.
I want to make room for some other discussion items and then circle back to this.
On Ruth: All of us are expressing disappointment and frustrations in our own way. More conversations to be had there. Good idea for folks to gather in a separate meeting to talk about responsibilities that need to be picked up.
pyconaut: Great to see you, Zach. I remember you mentioning you don't use Slack at all. If you somehow found one of the only weeks when we have not announced the meeting on Discuss, a lot of people have been putting effort into improving Slack. People like you, Liz, Alex, all didn't have their voices shown all that much because we didn't have the elevator, and we didn't have digital meetings.
Having you back is very important for this discussion.
There's a lot that's changed that you'd know about if you used Slack: Ruth; the elevator is no longer in our lease; we have estimates of how much it'd cost to fix the elevator; they are not good estimates. We have continued looking for buildings in SF.
I thank you for getting mad at that meeting about inaccessibility. Because we had been inaccessible for so long, the perspective of NBers was that we didn't have any disabled people, only because our elevator didn't work and our stairs are horrendous. We need the perspective of you, Liz, Alex, other community members who have been put on the wayside not only by the current pandemic but also by our current space being inaccessible.
A lot of people need to remember: We have a commitment to be accessible. There is no path forward in our current space to being accessible. Even if we buy the building, we still have to put a bunch of money into the elevator, which would not be feasible until well after we bought the building.
There's so much more about this than just we're in a space right now we should try to buy it; it's about what is the best real space for NB? 2169 is not the best space NB could have. Neither is 272 Capp, but 272 Capp is a step forward in accessibility; a small step backward in cost; a major step forward in zoning and legality of doing anything; and if fire checks out, a safer space for the whole community.
But also, there definitely are problems with our communication methods. That's why we made sure that the link to this meeting does not change. Same thing with the meeting notes. We try really hard to make sure that people can easily bookmark these so they can easily find them.
I see people asking where the link is? The simple answer is: You should bookmark it. Not to you specifically, just generally.
We as a community should bookmark it for everyone. In Slack, that means pinning it in #general. These meetings, and the meeting notes, are often posted on Slack and (unfortunately less often) on Discuss, in #general. If we pin this info to the correct location, there's less chance of people not finding it.
x: Let's continue that in the operating-remotely discussion.
bfb: Awesome that the space is being used for producing PPE. I don't see that as a conflict with moving. We should be able to continue limited operations during the transition.
Zach: I don't want to go into the discussion of Slack. We've beaten this horse so dead. If NB wants to host necessary, important, vital community information on Slack and nowhere else, that should be made clear on Noisebridge dot net. That's it. If it's essential, it should be advertised that way.
I would be curious to know when Ruth left. Still kind of a shock to me; what date was it?
Tyler: Like four days ago. I sent you a DM on Discuss with more info.
Zach: Good to know that it's recent and I haven't been out of the loop too long.
I really like Discuss.
I am concerned about deletion of posts. I couldn't find Ruth's post.
Tyler: The post was on Slack.
Zach: It was never posted on Discuss? Oh. There was something else that was deleted; what's the process on that, who has those powers? Separate discussion item.
x: The norms and process on Discuss are still being figured out. For canonical, official process, the wiki rules; it has better history. For official proceedings and documentation, we should all use the wiki. But we all need to work on those processes.
---HOLD STACK--- Will resume discussion, after check-in General Noisebridge questions Discussion item 1, PPE at Noisebridge Follow up meeting, additional volunteers and board More lease/moving discussion, etc ---RESUME STACK---
Stack moved to "Discussion" section...
(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)
continuation of last week emergency concensus item
|Date First Discussed||Proposed By||Informal Title||Summary||Author of this Record|
|19 May 2019||bfb||272 Capp Lease Agreement||That Noisebridge enter into the lease agreement with addendum at 272 Capp Street||bfb|
continuation of last week emergency concensus item
☆☆☆☆☆ NEW SPACE TOUR ☆☆☆☆☆ https://youtu.be/k7uP77GRvHc
Discussion Item 0
Covid Response project Eli/Samthing/gridmeister?
Eli: $(cat </dev/random >/dev/audio)
Eli: As some of you know, we've had a project producing PPE for UCSF in the NB space. After 6–8 weeks of good work, we shut it down as the need had been met.
I've been looking for more ways we could help. This week, @himalayaz, a.k.a. Silver, brought to our attention a non-profit called Something Labs. They're doing small-scale manufacturing using hand tools.
They've been producing things for a variety of hospitals around the Bay Area. They're asked us to use NB in a limited capacity while we're shut down and not doing anything else.
Marcela/gridmeister is here to say more.
gridmeister: I was there to do a set-up so Eli could get an idea. Your space is awesome; it's exactly the kind of space we want. 4–8 people to come in and make face shields. We need little space and power outlets and space to cut the masks.
Silver's also on here if she wants to chime in as well.
Silver: Today we had four of us, spacially distanced, making masks together. We've been working out of Port Space Oakland. Just recently we had a request for 4k face shields from a hospital in Santa Clara. It can be an inclusive project.
This is the perfect space as it ties in with what Eli has been doing in making medical-grade masks.
Eli: What we're asking for is a consensus that we're OK with this non-profit using this space to help fight COVID-19. It would be an ongoing project, a partnership with another organization. It's not something to embark upon without discussion from the broader community.
x: Direct responses? Recommend taking a look at and getting in touch with Ace Monster Toys, who've been working on the Boozy Masks project, producing thousands of masks. I can help connect you.
- info @ acemonstertoys . org
bfb: What's the background of Something Labs?
Also, Silver, it sounds like the goal is to expand? If that's the case, are y'all just kind of nomadic and moving between locations for short periods of time, or recruiting more people to build more masks?
What would the ramp-up look like, starting for people? I can't think of a better use of the space right now than this. Just want a clear understanding of what's going on.
Silver: A quick run-down is that this project started when the pandemic started. Samthing lives with someone who needed PPE. We made over 11,000 shields over the past six, seven weeks.
Today, what it looks like spatially is, there are four of us who are spatially apart, wearing masks, keeping the space clean, and the way that production has been set up is we have everything ready but what's best about working in a makerspace is that there's room for growth, engineers coming through, ideas on improving the product.
gridmeister: A bunch of us also worked/work at the Exploratorium. Shop developers and engineers who started Something Labs. There's a part of the masks that mask makers couldn't make themselves, so we're doing that.
We're also looking at not just hospitals but small businesses, who'll also need PPE.
Silver: Kaiser has funding for masks, but don't have approval to get them. So trying to be equitable to different hospitals.
Something Labs just sent out, overseas, some product, so not just the Bay Area.
Tyler: Impact on the space? Number of people involved? How will this impact the move?
Starting next week, we start putting more things in boxes. Maybe two weeks we have keys to the new building and we start moving things out the door. How long will this project be? Is this something you're OK with starting up and shutting down in three weeks?
gridmeister: Yeah, we can set up and tear down in like five minutes.
Zach: Silver, you look familiar. Were you in the space a year ago, the sewing area?
Silver: Yes, I donated some machines, used to teach classes. Then I moved to Oakland. I'm still an active Philanthropist but now remotely.
Zach: Cool. It's different if someone not part of the community comes to us with this request, but this is cool.
There's a fair number of non-profits that are exploiting the pandemic to exploit engineers and volunteer to work on their profits. Big problem right now. Personally, if that were to happen, a basic thing would be transparency documents about how product would be sold or distributed.
The other thing is the point Tyler made is valid. It might be worth prioritizing the move before working in a space that's in flux.
One thing that troubles me is I'm not hearing a lot about distancing being practiced in the space. I'm really surprised the space is open right now; I have some feelings about that. I hope people are being safe and we can create some guidelines.
Silver: I want to help set up the new sewing area in the new space. It doesn't seem like the move is happening within the week, so we can do that work within the week. It doesn't take that long to set up.
We did a demo today. And in the past weeks, we've been practicing distancing and cleaning and being safe.
I took some images to show how we're distancing.
Zach: Are people wearing masks and gloves? You're in the space right now, not wearing them.
Silver: I took some images and we were wearing PPE and cleaning up before and after with bleach and sanitizer.
Zach: It'd be cool to see them. Can you post them in the chat? I just post stuff on Imgur and then post the link in the chat.
Silver: I can put it on Discuss.
Gabriel: Sounds like a cool project. Question for Tyler: Do we have a specific timeline as to, with the “phased reopening” guidelines, do we know when that would trigger the 30-day countdown to having our lease start?
That relates to Tyler's question about prioritizing the move.
The other question, more for Silver and gridmeister: Generally, when people run events in the space that have revenue generation, there's an ask that some of that be shared with NB. I think I heard that this is a non-profit initiative? Can you clarify whether this is non-profit or for-profit? Generally hospitals do pay for PPE.
If this is revenue-generating, would some of that be shared with NB?
gridmeister: I'd have to ask Sam. I know some of this is grant-funded, but some product was donated. I don't want to say the wrong thing because I don't know all the funding sources. But it is a non-profit.
SAFETY Protocols in spaces
x: Do you have a written procedure and demonstratable process for adhearing to SF health and safety protocols?
boredzo: The last time I was in the space, there was policy posted, a big sheet of paper with most of the required elements (cleaning procedure, things you have to do, etc). There's no contact info on it though. I think Ruth volunteered to be that contact at one point, though her info was not posted last I saw and her offer has probably been withdrawn at this point. I have personally witnessed some lack of distancing procedure. I think we need to keep the space ventilated. Any droplets produced within the space would hopefully be evacuated. I hope we still have disinfectant wipes and they're still being used. There is a keeping watch page on the wiki about keeping watch over the space. There's a check list of cleaning procedures for volunteers taking shifts. We do need to keep the space clean and maintain distance as much as possible. That goes for guests as well as regulars, because a regular might get infected and then come in and spread it to others.
Zach: This convo is morphing into safety in the space. That's awesome. Can we make it a discussion item?
Kinnard: I first want to express gratitude to Eli for the work he's done over the past several weeks and those who've helped like Ahmad and Jay and several community members whose names I don't necessarily know. It's exemplary of what an anarchist hackerspace can do and be; it's a moment of triumph that when there's a critical need that we step up to help.
I think, based on some of the data that I've come across, it's going to be a very long time before the PPE shortage is abated, even with the efforts that have spun into action. I think it makes sense to use the tremendous resources that NB has.
I believe there's a way in this plan where NBers could actually get paid for helping produce PPE. Is that correct, Silver or gridmeister or Eli?
Silver: Through crowdraising, we can make that possible.
Tyler: On the paid gig: We should probably bring that up with the broader community. That's had some debate in the past, and comes down to discussions of people running businesses out of NB. I don't have a strong opinion but this maybe should be a Consensus item.
My concern is more the execution of this. How much space, how much time. One question is keys: How are people getting in and out of the space? I visited two days ago and the door was unlocked. People have been pretty insecure about that. Because there is a physical key now, people have been copying it and there's been key proliferation and there have been people sleeping at NB.
We had a brand-new welder a month ago. That's gone. When it's bringing more people into the space and copying keys for people, and lots of people will have effectively 24-hour access because they'll have a door key, it makes me cautious about how that's monitored and facilitated.
Silver: I think having more people throughout the day in the space will help secure the space as long as it's done in an orderly fashion. But I wouldn't say give everyone a key, just a point taker who knows NB protocols.
It's unfortunate that there's sharing and copying of keys. If you have more people who are conscious of the space, they'll take responsibility.
Eli: This is a great discussion. Kinnard and I had a discussion of whether to pursue this as big-C or little-c.
x: Would like to clarify the current status of the space. My understanding of still-current Consensus is that NB is closed. There are very minimal provisions to facilitate access to the space, specifically for access to lockers and anything critical. There had been a PPE project going with UCSF that has been concluded, and the only other semi-ongoing activity is prep for moving, specifically cleaning and packing. Would anyone like to add to that clarification as to the current state of NB?
Eli: Would it be necessary to get a big-C Consensus on it?
x: If this tend toward big-C Consensus, it'll need further discussion in future meetings. The next step would be to draft a Consensus Item proposal and post it on the wiki.
We have three open discussion items:
- General status of the space
- Discussion of 272/meeting
- General safety procedures at 2169
The latter of those two relate to this discussion item as well.
Eli: Kinnard and I wrote a proposal to bring to this meeting for Consensus. I put it in the agenda under Consensus Items, but it was moved to Discussion.
x: It's best for Consensus Items to be put on the wiki either in the Draft or Pending Consensus Items.
Zach: I am very interested in the safety stuff, but that sounds like a loaded topic, so maybe a time limit?
Would also love to talk about classes and remote accessibility.
Eli: Agenda item is here:
x: How tightly should we time-box the safety discussion?
Zach: 15 minutes? Maybe limit DRs to 1?
x: Anyone want to advocate for a different discussion?
Zach: I didn't realize there was still more to discuss on the lease.
x: Yeah, I'm mainly wondering if there's any intent to block.
Mark: Is there anyone here who believes this needs to be a big C Consensus Item?
From the proposal in linked doc: Something Labs is a non-profit that approached us about using our space to manufacture PPE. They need a space in SF to build hospital supplies to fight COVID-19. We’re seeking a Consensus to let them use our space while it is shut down. They only require tables and outlets in our space. They are making and donating parts for PAPR devices and gowns to health centers in the Bay Area and nationwide with a focus on equity and social justice. Proposed by: Kinnard, Eli, Silver
Tyler: I would like more discussion of it.
Jade: We need to see some documentation of who's paying for what.
x: Encourage continuing this discussion on Slack, Discuss, and the wiki.
Let's have a 15-minute discussion around safety protocols at NB. Then we could adjourn and have casual conversation.
Zach: I also want to discuss remote participation and classes and stuff, not close the meeting after 15 minutes.
x: Cool, so let's begin Discussion Item 3 until 10:15. Then continue until 10:30.
Discussion Item 3
30 Minute discussion: Safety at 2169 Mission
Boredzo: The Keeping Watch procedure originated from keeping the space secure while space is closed. Now's a good time to get back into the habbit of securing the space and keeping it clean. Keeping safety and security practice while in possible partnership with Samthing Labs
Zach: We also need to maintain a limit on headcount.
Silver: Yes, we only allow six people in the space.
I'm gonna show you some charts we have for rate of growth for this virus. I'll also show a study on the viability of this virus on surfaces. It is exponentially growing in our community and the space. People will die, and I don't want people dying. Six people, there's no way you're going to prevent infecting each other.
The virus lives forever in aerosols, in droplets. You can have the virus for up to 24 days with no symptoms. There's a study done by the CDC that shows the virus lived for up to 17 days on surfaces in cruise ships.
Myself and other people in the disability community have compiled exhaustive medical information about this virus and how it spreads. I hope that our community will lead in this way and really be responsible and safe. A lot of people are trusting whatever they hear in the news and not science and studies.
I would advocate for the space to be closed. If there's life-saving PPE being made in the space, that's a good reason to be open only for that. For a number, I hesitate to venture one, but six seems insane to me; two seems a good number. And you have to disinfect the place when you come and go because the virus lasts for days on surfaces.
Boredzo: Viablity of the virus (3 days was the end of the aerosol experimental environment in a spinning drum; other surfaces a few days). Should keep a low head count, disinfect on shift changes (3x a day). Airflow/evacuation of droplets is important. Cruise ship study detected genetic matches but not necessarily viable virus (the other study measured viability).
Kinnard: A few space guardians at a time practicing social distancing and allowing people to access lockers.
Subsequent to that, through one of the Bay Area PPE orgs, NB started supplying UCSF with PPE. When we first made these decisions, we made them based on the guidances, including the numerical limit on the number of people in the space at a time.
With six people, we're still within the recommendations, though they may be flawed. I don't have the math that I did in front of me, but with six people in the space, that allows more than a six-foot radius per person.
A lot of people have been doing things around this, including making schedules for cleaning of the space. Some of those people who have done that work as well as done things like write up and post NB's social-distancing policy and essential-activity policy aren't in this meeting.
This is still happening in a NB way, decentralized across the community. There's a #space-guardians channel on Slack, where a lot of the communication for this is happening.
Reflecting on the last several weeks, when I come into the space, things are normally within the limits that the community didn't officially Consense at but one thing we can do better at is probably surfaces. Probably Silver and the rest of the team will bring with them more best practices.
With everyone wearing masks and most people wearing gloves in the space, it's consistent with the guidance that allows more places to reopen than before. With the timeline of having movie theaters open in 2 months, I can't say the guidances are correct, but when I've tried to lead in doing, I've tried to follow their lien.
Zach: A lot of able-bodied non-seniors are not taking this seriously enough. Gov't recommendations are seriously flawed; we can all remember when they said masks weren't relevant for most people.
We're going to see something like New York where they had over 700 people die in a single day. We'll see people buried in parks because crematoria can't burn people fast enough.
NB is famous for having bad air quality, which makes the impact of the virus worse. I want to go on the record as saying that it's fucking insane to have six people in the space. I think there should be a consensus on the number. We had a consensus the space is closed, and it doesn't seem that's closed.
I see one person on this call who's in the space and not wearing a mask and gloves.
Silver: I'm also active at another space where I'm part of their cleaning crew. When no-one's in the space, I don't need to wear a mask, but every hour I am responsible for disinfecting the space, even if there's no-one in the space, as we do at Omni Commons. I'm doing the same thing there as I will do here.
pyconaut: Surfaces are one of the big problems. I just read over SF's guidelines for masks and gloves earlier today. When you're manufacturing medical PPE, or handling it, before it's been cleaned you do not need to wear a mask or gloves. It's whatever makes it easiest to manufacture and handle that good until, once it's been cleaned, you're not supposed to touch it at all without a very high level of protective gear.
During things like 3D printing, you don't want gloves you wear to get stuck to the print bed, or the material. But when not working on that stuff, everyone at NB should be wearing a mask if they're physically able to. Things like asthma that inhibit your breathing can mean you're not supposed to wear a mask.
Airflow and surfaces in NB are generally terrible.
One of the best things would be to close up and lock up a couple of the rooms including the wood shop, metal shop, Turing, and SparkleForge, as well as maybe some giant painter's drop-cloths and try to line as many things as possible with plastic drop-cloths that can easily be disinfected and cleaned.
Things like we should completely seal off the hack shelves, seal off the library, make it so there is almost no surfaces that can hold stuff easily. And then try to create positive airflow from the front of the space to the back of the space, even when the space is closed.
I actually had to go to a dentist's appointment the other day, and my dentist said they are the only person in their whole office and they see one person a day and they even think that might be too high. They literally—that whole dentist's office has a total of two people in it every day for less than two hours a day. But also since it's a dentist's office, they're literally working with someone's mouth. Literally the most effective way to spread a virus like this, so that's a bit higher level danger setting than NB.
But generally yeah, six is pretty high if we close off the rooms.
bfb: I want to applaud those who've been keeping watch. My interpretation of the Keeping Watch page is to support keeping one person in the space at a time.
How do we expand that? How do we allow two people and modify the Keeping Watch procedure to accommodate that?
I think pragmatically, we should evolve these safety protocols for things like, if we want to, supporting the creation of PPE, like 3D printing and assembly, as well as moving.
The worst-case scenario for me would be contact tracing turns up NB as a source of a local outbreak in the City. That's what these safety protocols are meant to avoid. Really good work; thanks everybody. My interest is how we can expand the Keeping Watch protocol to support more people in the space for things like moving and building PPE.
f: I don't know if it was small-c consensed upon, but I thought the original key-holders should be at the space at any given time. Now I'm hearing about keys getting duplicated. IIRC only certain key-holders was small-c consensed at previous meetings.
Kinnard: This is still a very human process. A good chunk of the people who were involved in the small-c consensus to close the space, these processes are very bumpy. We're being told very different things by different parts of gov't, changing their stances and policies in drastic ways; Zach says the City's policies are off. If you can't trust the Feds or the state or the City, that's a challenging situation to navigate, not just in the policy but the back-and-forth on the science. It's a big effort to integrate all the information that's hitting us, digesting studies like what Zach mentioned but also the criticisms of them. It's like another job.
So in this process, when we arrived at a numerical limit on headcount, we were actually being more stringent than the City's guidance at the time. We were around 30% more strict, so 3 ft more radius than was recommended by the City.
It's hard to come up with a policy other than let's be more strict than the guidances. That's what we've already done, though it hasn't been perfect.
It's very much in the interest of not only abiding by those guidances but because it is a danger to life going a step further. That's the case with what people are experiencing a lot of places.
You expect the human problems in our process are not unique to NB. I've seen stuff like this at the grocery store, or at the bank. Similar patterns, and these are things we just expect from humans. But what we should probably do is re-evaluate all the decisions that were made over the past several weeks, all the little-c consensuses, as the situation is evolving, so we're continuing to stay safe.
boredzo: WRT deriving headcount from sqft of the space: it assumes everyone is equally distributed throughout the space. Headcount from square footage doesn't matter if everyone's at the same table. It's more important to say "stay X ft away from each other." Everyone should wear a mask. Gloves can be as much a infection vector as a protection mechanism. Wear gloves when appropriate and wear them properly. Keep good airflow and clean surfaces frequently. We need to make sure this info is communicated to everyone who visits the space. It's their responsibility to keep the space clean and maintain distance.
Zach: I want to say, throwing doubt on those studies is a huge disservice to the community right now. We should be taking our knowledge from first responders and those most vulnerable. I'm immunocompromised. We've been studying this since early on; I've been warning people since early March.
It's very disappointing that people aren't taking this as seriously as they should. Gov't has its interest in the economy and business. “Reopening” really means re-infecting. What's problematic about “NB is closed except for PPE” is people have cabin fever; they're antsy. They want to get outside. What's problematic about “it's OK, it's for PPE, and maybe you'll get paid” is it incentivizes people to come in and be in and use the space.
We should take our cues not from gov't but from survivors and immunocompromised people.
x?: As few people as possible in the space, as in zero, or maybe 1.
x: Let's focus, take a breath. Thanks for keeping a difficult-to-moderate meeting an excellent meeting.
Would like to draw this specific topic to a close for the purpose of the meeting, and encourage a set of 2–5 volunteers to pick a date and time to gather regularly to draw up a protocol for not only today but the ongoing safety of Noisebridge. Let's keep the community updated via Slack/Discuss/wiki/other, and present some findings at next Tuesday's meeting.
People, at all times, wear face coverings in the space. All of us hope to return to Noisebridge sooner than later in whatever capacity. For my health and everyone's health, please continue to take seriously all the safety mechanisms we can, not just for yourself, but for everyone and those of us in the extended community that we affect directly and indirectly as well.
[Discussion Item 1, commence by ~22:30+5]
-- CLOSE DISCUSSION, for now --
Discussion Item 1
General updates around the space, how does Noisebridge continue to operate remotely
~15 minute check in and recap.
Kinnard: Appreciate Zach's perspective, which is probably missing from a lot of conversations. Hearing from people who are more at risk does help balance how we're viewing and understanding what's happening and make decisions. No way to do that if you're not able to participate in the meeting. Having this digital, virtual way to connect is really important.
Zach: The virtual stuff is fuckin' cool, man. I'm really excited; there's a lot of cool stuff. I saw Erykah Badu and COMMON perform for free over a Periscope livestream. Angela Davis read a poem. It was awesome!
I want to take that positivity and take it forward with NB. We had an excellent CHM yesterday; amazing and helpful for everyone who was present.
Robert: Thank you!
Zach: There you are! Fuck yeah.
That was a super fun night. Mike told me had a great time, a friend said he was hoping to make the next one.
So I'm excited about CHM, but also spreading feelers out for who's interested in EE, board design, home PCB assembly. Those are my areas of expertise. I'm getting a better webcam; can also teach EAGLE PCB design.
I design, and aside from the PCB which is produced by OSH Park, I produce everything else in-house. I look forward to imparting some of that knowledge.
What is happening virtually, and how can we spread the word?
boredzo: seconding virtual events a good thing, physical space or otherwise. Both for accessibility and to expand the reach beyond the space. All hackerspaces, all country, all World. Should continue pursuing pandemic or not. Appx earlier in meeting, about 72 hours ago, Silver mentioned having previously taught sewing classes at NB. I started doing those late last year into the start of this year, before stuff locked down; in the short term and maybe longer term, I'm interested in doing the sewing machine training I was doing in the space instead on camera at home, to post on NB YouTube or the like, official on-line saved copy. Maybe do a live-stream if that makes sense. tldr; I am interested in doing some online NB activities as well
Ⅹ: Internet archive is available as a resource for "Official" video.
Currently working with someone to test a new version [of Jitsi?] for NB to have at its disposal.
Discussion Item 2
More lease/moving discussion, etc
More daily discussion #inspection 4:44p @x
* Who is the designated member at the space taking responsibility for closing
x: Still seeking Consensus, no blocking issues. Still doing due diligence; expecting to resolve by next week. Looking forward to sign the lease, either with notice for a Special Meeting or at the following General Meeting.
Someone: What exactly is the process to trigger the 24-hour process? Does that have to be a Board member?
My proposal is basically 48 hours after we get the final inspection report, 48 hours after that we have the meeting to Consense upon finally, finally signing this lease.
x: I think it's up to the Board whether to move forward. Last stated by the Board, they'll move forward as soon as there's consensus from the community to move forward.
pyconaut: Membership can call a Consensus item for the Board to sign the lease. So the Board cannot sign it until Members Consense for them to sign it through a 24-hour process. After someone calls that meeting, the next night, a meeting will be held where if the Members present Consense that the lease looks good, then they can ask the Board to sign that lease.
Dan: Kinnard, this is the first time I'm seeing you at the end of a meeting. While we're here: Just following up on Ryan's description of our Consensus proposal and juxtaposing that with the Board's desire to move ahead once they feel there's consensus in the community.
So far, the only voice that I've ever heard articulate a strong vision other than moving to 272 is your alternate vision of not leaving 2169. So here we are. Let's work this out. Would you stand aside, or would you block? Would you say that signing the lease for 272 is just so awful that you can't do it and you're gonna start your own hackerspace and buy 2169? Can we work this out right here, right now, and say to the Board we've got the whole community ready to consense? What would it take? And then if you wanna buy 2169, we can have the reciprocal conversation. We're hearing what you're saying; can you hear the desire to forward, with respect?
Kinnard: To me, I feel like I'm almost too frequently relaying other people's stances who don't speak up for themselves in the meeting. They're excellent do-ocrats but they don't speak up in the meeting.
Dan: Let's start with you.
Kinnard: So there is a sizable portion of the community that happens to be rather quiet that would be down for it, but holds that the ideal (which folks have said is a pipe dream) would be buying NB's current home.
I've said it's more than feasible and have been working on it. So if I were a Member, I would definitely block doing this before the community has had a chance to re-coalesce.
The 24-hour Consensus Item, the process for that seems less than up to NB standard to me. But, a lot of it is about the right time to make this decision and the right way to do it. I think global crisis, Board Member resigning, etc. accumulate in a way that is not best-process for the community. Making this decision after the community has had a chance to re-coalesce while exiting this crisis is a very different thing.
If it's done in the wrong way, you risk disrupting the community, such that the new NB is a new community. What I could do, and have been mulling this and weighing this has been doing the fundraising anyway. We were just picking up the pace before the pandemic came down, so that's been upended, but something like 8 weeks post-quarantine to fundraise and buy the building and renovate it to make it suitable and make it accessible—there are a lot of people who've been working on this in the community and haven't been in the meetings, but they've written code, and what I'm going to do over the next week is get people to speak up and see that we've got what we need to bring the ideal into reality.
My idea with the crowdraise is to raise enough, and if NB wants to use it for something else, they can use those funds for that.
There is a set of the community that would be in favor of buying the building, and people who've said that's what we really want, but it's just not on the table.
- NB has had a long-standing culture of people silently having an opinion but not coming to meetings. You gotta come to meetings!
- Blocking meaning you have to feel like you have to leave if it goes forward? That seems wrong.
x: The idea is that you would block because you feel so strongly that you would leave if it went forward to it.
Zach: I disagree with that. It's ultimatum-laden.
x: Fair enough. Thank you.
Mark: I've heard from older NBers a similar definition.
Zach: I've been around for ten years!
Mark: Yeah, other equally-old NBers.
pyconaut: Yeah, that's how I was introduced to block.
Kinnard: How would you define blocking, Zach?
Zach: When I became a Member, it was explained to me as: It's not an ultimatum; it's the beginning of a conversation. When you feel strongly about something and you don't want it to pass. The way I've blocked things in the past was it's a conversation-starter.
Mark: I think both of those things can be true.
Zach: It's just that no-one ever explained it to me before as you feel like you would leave.
Steve: In terms of timelines, money—it's a miracle that we got the $150k in Bitcoin. Getting the millions of dollars needed to buy 2169 is a tall order.
I don't know what your concerns are other than it would be cool to think big and buy 2169. Time's running out; if you raise $4m in the next couple weeks, that's an interesting possibility. What are your specific concerns about moving, and why is it a problem to move to 272?
Plus there's problems with staying, right? That Tyler's talked about?
Kinnard: People want to stay. If you survey ten NBers, or 20, they'll say yes, let's stay if we could.
I think it's feasible within the next several months to raise $4m. The people who've helped with the crowdraise project so far have experience with that. The biggest impediment is just how things have been shaken up by the current crisis. My plan is to ask all the people who said to me “we should buy the building” to speak up and not be silent do-ocrats.
I've been spread thin, but am happy to do work like looking into what needs to get done with the transaction, the relationship with the current landlord. Doing a lot of research on property and leasing because I'm taking over the CryptoCastle, so I'm doubling up in terms of residential and commercial in that aspect.
x: I appreciate the weight of the impact with Ruth in the past week, but feel your voice in particular is escalating beyond what it is? They were not the only person involved in these conversations; Tyler has been kept up to speed if not directly involved, and others have participated in keeping continuity around that.
We've got 18-something folks still in the meeting here; I don't think that a majority of them would concur that staying at 2169 is in our best interests. I think you might want to re-evaluate and expand the scope of your polling. No disrespect, and I don't mean to belittle a single voice from a chorus of voices, but a number of people have expressed concern while keeping positive momentum.
Zach: The elevator. I haven't been able to get into NB for a year. I used to use that fuckin' thing and it's so destroyed. I will never be able to get into 2169 Mission, even if we buy the space. It sucks being kicked out of Noisebridge.
What would you do with the elevator?
Kinnard: This has come up a couple of times and I've thought about it, but not yet thought about numbers on top of buying the building. Other things, too, like the sprinkler system which we do have numerical estimates for.
I think I'll try to make it numerical and bring an alternative proposal to the community.
I don't want to be the voice for the voiceless. I hope I can go to the people who have spoken to me and encourage them to be a part of these conversations.
The people who support remaining at 2169 have aggregated in the #nb-remain channel on Slack.
It's something that, if NB were to move, I'm not planning on not showing up, but I might do a crowd-sell and try to buy 2169 anyway.
Kevin: I want to be sensitive and I know this won't be a popular opinion, but I want to address the process concerns. The Zoom meeting link being published only this week in Slack, and there being community members who are not on Slack. I'm not opposed to a 24-hour Consensus occurring between now and next week, but would like to invite broader participation through posting the Zoom link and time of the meeting on Discuss, the mailing list, and Slack.
I'm leaning toward unless something really urgent comes up, we try to do it as part of the regular General Meeting. I'd like to avoid a 24-hour Special Meeting unless we get an explicit communication from the broker that “hey, this is going away unless you get your shit together”. The meeting link was only published on Slack; I really dislike Slack, and was opposed to using it, and it would feel bad if others were excluded from this decision based on principled objections to using a walled garden.
Steve: I want to understand better what Kinnard is coming from and agree with Dan that it'd be better to have a unified front. Isn't it the case that it's not feasible for us to stay where we are?
pyconaut: For one thing, our floor of the building—we got rid of the zoning requirements. The City forgave us the money we owed them. But the floor we're on would never be able to be zoned properly for F1 Light Industrial that we need. The elevator repairs we got many estimates, and it would be anywhere from $50k to all the way up to $1m if they need to replace it entirely.
To buy the building: The main revenue source is the first floor. They have a 50-year lease. They would be tenants even if we owned the building. Wouldn't be a bad thing; would bring us some income.
The space is something NB is currently outgrowing. That's one issue that people have brought up over the years. It's gotten crowded. We had to turn away donations because we couldn't fit them.
But the ADA dangers even if that elevator were fixed—that elevator may not officially be considered a personnel elevator, more an equipment elevator. If we had the money, we might be able to buy the building, but I think there'd be a lot of unforeseen issues even than trying to shop around for another building that meets higher-level requirements.
Also, it doesn't have ventilation, though the new place won't either. We'll have to build that, and that's a danger that we face at both places. Moving will be hard.
There's a lot on both sides, and there's been a lot of research into the costs of repairing 2169. Right now, even without buying the building, if we wanted to not be evicted, it would probably cost the whole $300k that we currently have in the bank to quickly fix all of the problems in the building that are forcing us to be evicted, because the faster we want to fix things, the more expensive they will be to fix.
Dan: Can I check in with Kinnard? Can you acknowledge or reject the validity of what you've just heard from pyconaut here?
Kinnard: Yeah, I've heard those points. He did say we're being evicted and we're not. Has anyone gone to the landlord and said hey, you're about to lose what has been your cash cow for a decade?
Tyler(remote): RE Landlord: The landlord is not interested in us staying as it would require $150k + in sprinkler improvements for us to stay. We are required by the building department to remove the sparkleforge construction, and potentially the bathrooms. I.e. all unpermitted construction. This was supposed to have happened by now, but COVID shut down the building department. The easiest thing for the landlord to do is ask us to leave and remove the unpermtted construction.
Dan: My proposal is that you would have my moral and, FWIW, financial support—two cents—if you were to crowdfund to buy 2169 for a museum for NB as it was.
In my opinion, and probably the City inspectors and whatever forces that can be brought to bear, I don't see it as a smooth sailing going forward. So I would ask for your moral and political support to make the move to Capp St. In return, I would offer you my support for buying 2169. We would not lose 2169, but we would gain 272.
I want to invite some thinking along these lines of keeping these things moving forward. Do you hear Zach? He's been waiting a year. I've seen the new space and I want to move into it. Thank you for listening and stimulating some thought for everyone including myself. Let's talk offline.
Kinnard: I'm kind of a NB imperialist: Our real orientation should be how should we expand NB, rather than being in this mode of being pushed out? Let's grow and take over more space, in addition to 2169.
But, feasibly, both at the same time, maybe the second floor of 2169 is a better place to expand.
I don't see myself as blocking the community on this. I'm voicing things that I hear people saying but people don't come to the meeting to say. It's a matter of losing community integrity if we move forward in the wrong way. The 24-hour Consensus process is wacky; the community has been fractured by a global crisis.
Let's come together and move forward from that point. Not at least doing that seems like a bad move.
I'm going to do more research and put together an alternative proposal and timeline.
Final [DR], could we stay? --- CLOSING STACK AND DISCUSSION ---
pyconaut: Remind people that this weekend is Virtually Maker Faire. I might announce a bit more during 5mof if I'm able to show up, but I'm still checking in with people if they want to host any NB Maker Faire things. Should be focused on COVID stuff.
Zach: I worked on a PPE project very intensely and developed a PAPR motherboard. It went through all the way to first rev of the prototype. There was some internal startup-culture nonsense and the team I was working with dissolved. So if you know of a mechanical engineer or a team of people who'd be interested in moving that project forward, please get in touch with me. I'm on Discuss; DM me there.
Guild updates from Mark at 5MoF
Ⅹ: There will be 5MoF Thursday 8p in CYBERSPACE, SPACE, S P A C E
- - - > FINAL CALL FOR UN-HEARD VOICES IN THE DARK < - - -
Mitch says... -someone quoting? Ⅹ will x'plain a bit, maybe a byte. https://www.noisebridge.net/index.php?title=Noisebridge_Vision&oldid=49
Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a space that is open to members 24/7, a place to work on projects both solo and collaborative, a place to support and be supported in your projects, easily accessible to mass transit, safe to get to night or day, a place with a kitchen and a shower, a place to hang out with other geeks? Excitement has been building to create such a space! It turns out that there are several other people who have been independently thinking about starting a hacker space here. There are probably lots of people that none of us know that are also thinking about this as well. This all tells me that it is really is time for a hacker space here!
Last night (18-Nov-07), as I type, a group of us discussed some ideas that we were all jazzed about (as I remember it -- others please feel free to edit this): a space where members pay between $50 and $100 per month (depending on the rent and any common fund we'd like to build up); exploring the intersection of art and technology; diverse membership is cool! (both in types of people and in the types of geekiness members are into); no tolerance of intolerance, including no homophobia, racism, sexism; agreement that people will work interpersonal things out with each other (including not talking behind others' backs); respect for others' well being; there will be space for members to work on projects, and a common space for events, classes, art; members can store their projects in storage drawers/lockers/bins; the focus of the space is non-commercial.
Mitch also would say that his opinion shouldn't be taken as authoritative. Not that these goals aren't excellent. Just that maybe appealing to Mitch as an authority is kind of bunk and unexcellent.
That's exactly the sort of thing Mitch might would not say.
x: I call this meeting officially to a close and encourage you to be Excellent and hang out, or otherwise.
End of Meeting
For teh LulZ, NIGHT! T.J.!