Meeting Notes 2020 06 09
These are the notes from the The 582th Meeting of Noisebridge.
help take notes at - https://pad.riseup.net/p/nbmeeting
video meeting on zoom at - https://zoom.us/j/972291454
- Date: 06-09-2020
- Note-taker: Tiffany
- Pre-Meeting Moderator: pyconaut
- Moderators: FIXME THEIR NAME HERE
- 1 Meeting Summary
- 2 Pre-Meeting
- 3 Main Meeting
- 3.1 Introductions
- 3.2 Short announcements and events
- 3.3 New Philanthropists
- 3.4 New Members
- 3.5 Financial Report
- 3.6 Fundraising Update
- 3.7 GuildMaster's Report
- 3.8 Consensus
- 3.9 Discussion
- 4 End of Meeting
FILL OUT AT END OF MEETING AND SEND TO MAILING LIST One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary. TLDR what happened at the meeting:
- New philanthropists:
- New members:
- Consensus Items:
- Discussion Items:
Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.
(What does that mean? How does the Anti-Harassment Policy fit into this? Are we SURE we know what being Excellent is? This is an important and fundamental conversation at Noisebridge, so let's give it like 120 seconds.)
Excellence is about caring for yourself, others, the space, and the community, it is about calling out when you see something wrong, and being available to help others. Being excellent can be doing things like taking out the trash, fixing a broken machine, cleaning up one of the areas, etc. As long as you follow the one rule, you will be welcome at noisebridge. We also have a Strict antiharassment policy, so if you are making people feel harassed through your actions, you will be asked to leave.
Everyone at Noisebridge is a participant at Noisebridge.
(What does that mean? How do you get a door key? Access to Slack, Discuss, etc?) There are many ways to participate at noisebridge, this includes taking a class, teaching a class, giving a presentation, using our equipment, etc. You can also do just about any project since we run on do-ocracy. But if you think that the action or project might disturb others, please go through small c consensus and ask the community before you take any actions. Once you come by for a bit and gain some trust from the community, you can ask for a 30 day access token which will get you in the noisebridge door from 10am to 11pm for 30 days (then it then needs to be renewed). You can also participate digitally through our different online systems- noisebridge slack noisebridge discuss https://discuss.noisebridge.info/ noisebridge wiki https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/ noisebridge meetup https://www.meetup.com/noisebridge/
A Philanthropist at Noisebridge has earned enough trust from the community to open and close the space.
(What does that mean? What do we expect from Philanthropists? How do you become one? etc)
Once you come by for a while and have a lot of trust from the community, people might start asking if you want to become a philanthropist (you can also apply right away if you think the benefits are worth it). A philathropist is the next trust level after daytime access (30 day token) usually in escalating participation. You get 24/7 access during non plague times, pay some money (40 to 80 dollars amonth), you must know how to open and close the space, give tours, and introduce new people to the space. We want you to be able to help more people be able to access the space, and be excellent! To apply you get a big M Member to sponsor you, then you fill out a Plilanthropy pledge and read all the associated materials, then you come to a tuesday meeting to submit the application. During that meeting you will be questioned for a bit, and then if no one objectas to you being a philanthropist, you will become one.
Membership in Noisebridge entails community Trust in Consensus.
(What does that mean? What do we expect from Members? How do you become a Member? etc)
Big M Members are different from just being a member of the community, this is the highest trust level of the noisebridge community, it means that everyone in the community trusts that you would make good decisions about how noisebridge can move forward. This is an annoying bureocratic level of trust, as the only theoretical benefit is that you get to block big C concensus items, and vote on who we place on our board. To become one, you need to go through a four week process, where you fill out a membership form sponsored by two big M members. You bring it to a tuesday meeting where it is submitted, your membership will be discussed at that meeting, then at the next tuesday meeting your membership is discussed again and if it gets to concensus, you will be asked to leave the room while the members present decide if they want to block you or not, if no Member blocks your membership application you become a Member. For the next two weeks any big M member can retroactivly block your membership for any reason. If you get blocked figure out why, fix the issue and then reapply at a later time.
Guilds are how groups at noisebridge organize.
(What is a guild? How do you join one? etc)
Guilds are groups at noisebridge that rally around a common interest. Any group can create a guild by writing a Charter AND maintaining the group according to the metaguild guidelines: https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Guilds
Consensus is how the Noisebridge Membership may change how Noisebridge works.
(How does Consensus work? What types of things are good for formal Consensus? What is small-c consensus? What is a "block"?)
concensus is the process by which things that can't be done through basic do-ocracy (things that affect others in the space.) It has two flavors, small c and big C. Small c concensus is the process where things that might cause slight issues in the space (events, big projects, moving rooms, etc), you just talk with the community before doing things. Big C concensus is the process by which action are taken at noisebridge that are too big, too expensive, or too critical to be done by small c concensus. These are things like Moving, spending a lot of money, or doing legal bureucratic garbage. This is a two week+ process where an item is propsed one week (if possible you should already have the item posted in draft concensus items, and the binder). At that meeting it will be discussed for a while, then the next week it will be discussed again, and if people feel confident, it will be brought up for concencus, and if no big M member blocks the consensus item it passes and becomes a Consensed item.
A/S/L?!?!?! Ryan (pyconaut)- exploring VR Robert , Circuit hacking monday + Advanced fun stuff support Sunday. zack been around noisebridge for about 10 years, does electronics
Short announcements and events
60-second description per item in bulletpoint.
Robert: 0. Robots and the future of building stuff at Noisebridge.
Za: About the Othermill Pro, a very nice, high-precision CNC machine we have at NB -Have been working hard to repair it (there's a thread with videos and pictures: https://discuss.noisebridge.info/t/othermill-pro-hacking-and-repair/1813). I've been working with Robert, who helped get this in my possession. I contacted customer support and had to dissassemble the whole thing. I've been putting in 5-10 hour days working on this. I wanted to share my excitement with the community. We can use this machine to manufacture our own PCBs in-house, for CHM, for fundraising, etc. We can start teaching surface-mount ... In 2016, NB spent $2500 on it, and I saved us some money by fixing it myself. We would like to get the parts we need to have it last 5-10 years (~$75). The manufacturer discontinued it. Would like to be reimbursed for the drill bits I purchased for it. I've been writing documentation for it and recommend training like we have for the laser cutter.
CHM happened yesterday, and it was a blast! It's super fun! It became Circuit Hacking Tuesdays (since we continued so long). There's a video of yesterday's stream, sped up: https://streamable.com/9dd2rj
pyconaut: My friend in Sonoma has a whole warehouse of semiconductor manufacturing equipment he's trying to get rid of. I'm going up, and I might check it out to see if there's any equipment NB wants. Not sure about the prices, but I'll check it out. It looks like stuff for making true silken wafers.
<pyconaut screenshares pictures of the equipment> <people are mostly unimpressed> it is a ABANDONED Semicon wearhouse
Robert: CHM autonomous robotics and ... will eventually be using the Othermill, the oven, and some other things in order to teach SMD as a way to reduce waste in a prototyping space. A lot of SMD stuff was dropped off from a company just before SIP.
pyconaut: Sudo Room has a Pro pick n place.
Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.
- Funds in bank: (from last week)
313k total 213k cash 100k crypto Still slowly selling off crypto.
- Noisetor (See the bulletpoints at the bottom of http://noisetor.net/finances/#summary):
- Any other details by those participating in handling our financials
- The latest financial reports from the treasurer are available at https://discuss.noisebridge.info/c/finace/39
Za Question about othermill repair parts reimbersment About $175 in parts
Tyler: what happens if people break it again or it doesent get used much
Za is writing up very detailed documentation on usage and repair, will put it on the wiki, will print out and laminate signs to stick onto the machine
Pyconaut: equiptment fund is usually 50%, but now that we have a bit more money we could think abouut changing that.
Za just saw We also have a 100% discressinary fund and this might fall under it. Equiptment fund is for new tools,
Tyler: probably fits under discressinary fund
How's it all going
What is the current state of structural organization at Noisebridge?
- What guilds are active? (Read the active guilds from Guilds wiki page)
- (For each guild mentioned, ask if guild rep is present for a brief status update)
- Would you like to join or start a guild? Checkout our guidelines or contact MetaGuild for help.
(Add any items which are consensed upon or someone has raised a principle objection for to the Consensus Items History page.)
|Date First Discussed||Proposed By||Informal Title||Summary||Author of this Record|
|26 May 2020 (informally discussed meetings prior)||ZAAA||Closing Noisebridge during the COVID-19 Pandemic||I am submitting the formalized closure of Noisebridge during Stage 1 and Stage 2 of the current COVID-19 pandemic.
With 98,980 cases and 3,884 deaths in California as of this writing, it is essential that Noisebridge stay closed in order not to further spread this virus in our communities.
SF's cases are still surging upward and the Mission neighborhood is tied for the highest area for positive cases.
With the exceptions of:
1. Consensed temporary use only to make PPE / life-saving medical equipment (following the safety orders outlined by the Governer: https://covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-office-workspaces.pdf)
Za: This is already the informal rule for NB. Locks have been changed, people have been told the space is closed, but not everyone is honoring it or hearing it. Making it official will help. It's in line with the law. ... Last week, people asked a ton of questions on it. This is the second week this item is on the table. No one has reached out to me about any qualms.
Pyconaut: any questions?
f: What's the actual action we want to follow if this is consensed on?
Za: As I mentioned last week, this is just a baby step. It's not an action item itself. I didn't include anything like that because it would make this harder to pass. I tried to make this as simple as possible.
f: I agree we should have this in writing.
Za: It's a good question, a question we ask after this passes.
Robert: Maybe in the language, to make it a little more clear, say it's an action item of thinking, of figuring out how the community should be responding.
Za: This is the second week though. By omission, I thought it would be clear that there would be no action to be done.
Mark: I don't see any problems, personally. But, I'm also not a Member.
Za: But you're a part of the community.
Mark: Unless you want to add clear action items.
Za: This is just a first step. I could write items tonight/tomorrow. Anyone could add action items.
Mark: I feel a little removed from this. Haven't been to NB in a while. I can edit websites/the wiki, but that's the extent of my involvement.
Za: I haven't been to the space in over a year.
pyconaut: One of the spacewatchers showed me the space earlier today. It's pretty packed up, and it seems like most people have left.
Pyconaut- I propose that this concensus item is brought to consensus, Za- I second
Mark - Do we have a quorum? Pyconaut- Unsure Za - this is not an irreversible decision. There were many members present last week who had a chance to voice any concerns. We would like to recah out to all other members if possible, but I just want to move this along. If someone disagrees with it and we find out later, I will personally talk to them and we can try to hash out any concerns..
Mark: What's the number of Members we need for a quorum?
pyconaut: It's been 3, but that was when there was more Members. If we get one more Member...
Gabriel: Are Membership applications happening remotely?
pyconaut: Philanthropy applications can be done remotely, but I don't know how people would feel about granting Membership remotely.
<lxpk joins the meeting>
lxpk: I've been listening to the meeting.
pyconaut: Is there any Member present who block this consensus item?
I should ask, lxpk, do you have any questions first?
lxpk: Does anyone see any downsides to doing this?
pyconaut: So I'll ask again, are there any Members who block this item?
Ok, this item is consensed!
Pyconaut LXPK Za
|Date First Discussed||Proposed By||Informal Title||Summary||Author of this Record|
|26 May 2020 (informally discussed meetings prior)||ZAAA||Limiting people at Noisebridge during the COVID-19 Pandemic||I am submitting for consensus for limiting the number of people at Noisebridge during the Pandemic to no more than four (4) people in the space at any given time.
I think we should err on the side of caution and work to be safe, using the safety orders outlined by the Governer: https://covid19.ca.gov/pdf/guidance-office-workspaces.pdf as a bare minimum starting point.
Note, that this order recommends "physical distancing to the maximum extent possible."
pyconaut: I have heard a block for this one, that has been proxied to me.
Za: Is that from Tyler? Can you mention what that was about, or should I read the item...
Zac: Last meeting, lot of people had questions and then agreed with it. In the chat, Tyler said he would block and then he left. I messaged him to ask him about it:
"Hey, I saw as you were leaving the meeting on Tuesday that you said you would block the consensus item I proposed for limiting the number of people in the space during covid (specifically California Phase 1 and Phase 2). I was hoping we could open a dialogue about this and I’d love to know where you’re coming from and what your concerns are
Za: I recognize this is a super stressful time. I'm wondering what he said to you, pyconaut, because I'm left in the dark. I don't know what the rules are about proxying.
pyconaut: In the case of Membership blocking, you don't have to say anything. But in the case of consensus items, it's in good faith to discuss the details. Part of this is, Tyler has been worn out. He's done ~90% of the work regarding our lease, as well as working as our treasurer, rebuilding our treasury system. He's very busy right now with our finalized lease negotiation. He's making sure everything is getting signed by who has to.
Za- In the interest of time, can we jump to what is relevant to this consensus item specifically?
pyconaut: Let me bring up what he sent me...
From tyler to pyconaut:
"1 - I think it warrants more discussion 2 - 4 people is far below the current guidelines of 1/4 Fire capacity 3 - if make the number unreasonably low (like 4) it means that the rule will be entirely ignored.I mean, there are 4 people or more at noisebridge on a daily basis right now. Imagine in two months when bars and gyms are back in business and people have largely forgotten covid. No-one is going to listen to a "4 person max" sign. I think the better solution is setting the number closer to 20, and having a regular sanitation schedule. And yea I'll convey these thoughts more publicly. I just didn't get a chance to last the full meeting"
pyconaut: The proxy was passed on to me from someone who had to leave during the pre-meeting.
lxpk: Are you capable of explaining it?
pyconaut: There is worry that people will ignore the 4-person rule. I think this will be different since we have now formally closed Noisebridge. I think it makes sense to lower our number to 4 people. But I do think this is something people want to discuss further.
lxpk: What exactly is the 4 number based on? You said it's the middle ground between 2 and 6. It's based on the stairway increasing the probability people will run into each other?
Za: Yes, but I expected people to want a higher number, and we'd discuss. There's the issue of the stairway (a non-visible stairway where you can run into people), the air quality/ventilation in the space (already very poor), and there are not many exits. Another point is, how many people can you have in the space who can maintain 6 ft away from each other?
lxpk: It seems like it's more important that we have a fixed number than no number.
Robert: I've definitely seen the attitudes of the people who are at NB. They don't seem to come to the meetings as often. Maybe reaching out... It's a complicated issue, and we need to talk about it.
Za: I wholeheartedly agree with what both of you said. The number was meant to be a starting point for discussion. One important point I wanted to mention, Tyler said that people will want to show up to the space more when gyms & bars reopen. The consensus item was meant for phases 1 and 2, and bars are in phase 3. This is following the governor's guidelines for safety. Our neighborhood is being hit especially hard. 94% of cases in the Mission are Latino, so this is a Black and rown issue. People are dying. That's why I put this consensus item. ... I feel very uncomfortable with 20 people being in the space. At the last meeting, we all agreed except for Tyler, so will have to talk about this.
Robert: One thing Tyler said, that people would be unhappy and not follow the rule. Something I remember is when you're trying to change a company culture, you don't put down hard rules, but instill? behaviors. Like cleaning the space... Having a positive reward would help, but I don't know what that would be yet.
Za: First off, the idea of not passing a rule because people might not follow it is a strange approach. When they passed SIP, people were unhappy. There are people going to the beach, having house parties. There are always people who won't follow rules and who don't care. But having rules won't harm anyone. Like not being able to sleep at NB. It took a while for it to become a rule, but now people understand. It's not proposing an action. It doesn't mean that if you show up at NB, you're banned or something. It might mean we swap people or come up with a rotation schedule.
I think Robert's right, we come up with rewards. He's already doing it! The virtual classes are a reward. It's a fun thing that encourages people to stay home, something they can do while they're at home.
Tyler and other have recommended the idea of sanitizing the space. My question is, how much bleach/sanitization materials do we have to keep doing that? When I looked for it for my own place, it was hard to find. Is it wasteful when people need those things for their homes and in the hospitals? What's our supply chain on sanitization materials?
lxpk: X suggested we have someone oversee these measures, someone to be on-site to advise people on how to follow the measures. We could discuss all the details at every meeting. This kind of needs to be a little team to implement safety on an ongoing basis.
Gabriel: WRT what phase 2 entails, it might not be bars, but there are spaces that feel very similar to NB that are allowed to be open.
Za: It's kind of scary, to be honest. The government has a huge economic interest in reopening. NB can be a leader in what is safe, a leader in science of what the medical literature says. Infection rates are not going down. I think we can be safer than, and I'm pushing for being safer than, what the government is suggesting. We're not an essential business. The point of phase 2 is so those people don't go out of business and lose their livelihood. NB is different, we don't have employees who have to feed their children.
Gabriel: I want to be clear, that just because we look somewhat similar to an office, that doesn't mean we should be reopening. Schools are reopening on July something?
Za: I wasn't trying to accuse you of posing any position. Just my takeaway on that. It's a line of discussion I've heard a number of times. I heard from my friend who is a teacher, that they are facing eviction... I suspect that [reopening date] will be rescinded, especially after the huge protests. There's a lot of government pushback right now. The government does things all the time, things that are not safe. The people we should listen to during this pandemic are medical first-responders, scientists who are experts, and the people who are most vulnerable. I want to encourage people to listen to those sources instead of news outlets. I've compiled a list to check out.
pyconaut: For me, right now I'm focusing on the move. I think that's one of the reason people want a lot of people be allowed in the space. The max I feel comfortable with during the move is 6 people. I think 4 is a very, very good number for the move. It's about being patient and well-planned. We will have 2 places to have this 4-person rule, and I don't think it will take all that long to move NB. What will take long is building out the new NB. When it comes to the move, I don't think we should be putting a consensus item like this on hold just because we're worried about not being able to move quickly. Right now most of NB is already packed up, which was done by like 2 people over the past 2 weeks. One room was packed up by one person in about 20 hours. I think it's unwarranted to worry about not having enough people to move. We should prioritize safety. The plan I'm creating is assuming there will only ever be 4 people moving stuff.
Gabriel: My understanding is that our lease says we don't ... until 30 days after the SIP order is over. I thought that meant that's at least past phase 2.
pyconaut: There's a difference between building access and the start of the lease. We are able to move in before we start our lease. We are able to move in after we sign the papers. What we have to do to move in, is sign the lease papers (currently overseen by Tyler and Alice), pay our down payment, and after landlord confirms the payment, we can use the space. We can use it indefinitely. If the SIP doesn't end till 2021, we would not start paying rent until 2021. But we would have access to the space. We are going to start moving well before SIP ends. Part of the reason is that moving is deemed an essential service. People are allowed to move, whether they're an individual or a business. There are probably some guidelines we should look into. But we're already in the process of preparing to move. I want us to have a good understanding of how many people will be helping us move, and I want to give them a clear outline of how they can be safe and how NB will try to keep them safe.
Dan (via chat):
agree NB should be safe as possible ... I support the current proposal to limit to 4 - for now
still would expect for longer term flexibility, Consensus would also be put to good use by setting up a general framework for nailing down specific details which will change over time - probably faster than the NB formal Consensus process can keep up with.
that is all
Robert: Dan said what I was going to ask everyone. Think about one thing we can implement that we haven't done yet, or that we can do better. It would awesome to hear any ideas.
pyconaut: It does look like this will be pushed back another week. But now that NB is formally closed, people should not be going to space except to grab their stuff, to pack, or to check on the space. Hopefully there are no events happening at NB. The PPE project doesn't seem to be happening, so the 3D printers shouldn't be on.
Za: Is anyone here opposed to this consensus item? Or is there anything that should change about it?
Mark: I suggest drafting more specific language into the consensus item that would serve as a compromise.
f: Something we could add is a limit of keys, since that seems to be a problem. Not that that will stop them from letting more people in, but that could help.
Za: Totally see where people are coming from. I'm concerned the block doesn't have to do with the level of detail, but that it's a disagreement about 4 people being the limit. No amount of detail will change that part of the block.
pyconaut: Does anyone else have concerns about 4 being too low a number?
Robert: Maybe making it clear that it's 4 per space.
Za: A clarifying thing on that - I'm happy to add that. I wrote this worried about the current 2169 space. I'm happy to add that, but it might be something that causes it to be blocked. Since Tyler blocked, he has to come on board.
Za: The reason I'm asking if anyone here is blocking, I want to know if everyone else is onboard with the item in its current iteration... By bars & gyms, does he mean phase 2, we need more info from tyler.
Za: I want to make sure other people can say stuff too. Feel free to chime in. It's a conversation with everyone right now.
Tyler: I'm caught up on the meeting. Can hop right into the rebuttals. I think 4 people is too low, so it will not be followed. Today NB had 5 people there. If you set a rule that is roughly unreachable, it will be completely ignored. If it's more reasonable, it's something we can post and have people follow.
Robert: Tyler, I do agree with that in the sense that this time it's 5, next time it will be 4.5 or 6. When you have 5 people there, and there were 4 people there originally, it's hard psychologically to boot someone. If you say 6-7, there's a higher chance that someone will be able to say, we need to be careful and there are too many people...
Gabriel: I'm just wondering about the context of the 5 people in the space today.
Tyler: Someone has to go in there to kick them out. My plan, though passive-aggressive, is to take every single chair out of NB after we get the keys to 272 Capp.
Gabriel: So it's just people hanging out at NB?
Za: It's really sad to hear that our collective makerspace is being used as a living room. It's not to shame anyone, this is really hard stuff. For me to relate sometimes is a little tricky. As an immuno-compromised person, I live like it's SIP all the time. For the rest of society, they're trying to figure out what to do when they can't see people. They can technically. It's not about shaming people or playing good cop bad cop, but it's about coming together as a community and deciding what is safe. It's about deciding on our values. Whether people will follow those values, that can come later. But if we don't have a number in writing at all, anything goes. It could open up some possible liability issues. I want to ask, what's the lowest number you would feel comfortable with, Tyler, and what's the reasoning around it? What are your feelings about stage 1/stage 2? Does the number apply to stage 2?
Tyler: When does stage 1 end?
Za: I don't know the exact date.
Tyler: I just got an email from Touchstone Climbing that they will be open next week. That seems like a way more high-risk type venture than NB. I think 4 is too low, maybe 10 would be a number. 1/4 of fire code allowance would be about 15 people. If you say NB is only 4 people allowed, and they look at other businesses, they will say, well why did they choose 4?
pyconaut: I definitely understand trying to follow legal requirements. But legal requirements are not even close to what scientific logic is saying. We're anarchists; the gov't does not exactly dictate the best way to do things. Even if we can legally be at a certain number, ethically/morally we should be at a lower number. We could have mutliple numbers, say 15 people max during closure if there is an emergency. But NB's personal recommended guideline could be 4 people. We could tell people how we came to that number. We have unique issues due to our layout, stairway, and air quality. I think that should play a bigger role than what our fire guidelines say.
Za: Tyler, we talked about the number being reached because of the air quality and stairwell. This stuff is vague even coming from the gov't. In order to enter phase 2, there would have to be 1 or fewer cases in the past 14 days, and no deaths in the past 14 days. The gov't has taken this back recently, but the science has not changed that quickly. I want us to be safe. What are your thoughts wrt to phase 2? Should we mimic the gym that's reopening? It's dangerous to do comparisons like that. We can't predict or know how people will respond. But I value your opinion on the matter.
from chat by za: What is required to enter the second stage of Phase 2?
Any county that wants to accelerate its reopening must submit a 12-page application, called a “local variance attestation,” plus supporting documents. This week, the state lowered its requirements to show “epidemiological stability,” citing increased capacity to test for and trace new cases (changes noted below).
The form sets forth a number of criteria counties are required to meet to prove their “readiness.”
1 or fewer cases per 10,000 residents the past 14 days No deaths for the past 14 days No more than 20 confirmed COVID-19 patients hospitalized on any of the past 14 days OR 7-day average of hospitalizations increasing by less than 5% Fewer than 25 new cases per 100,000 residents for the past 14 days (cumulative) OR positive-test rates below 8% for the past seven days Minimum daily testing of 1.5 per 1,000 residents, with recommendation of 2 per 1,000 Testing sites within 30 minutes of 75% of urban residents and 60 minutes
Tyler: I don't think my opinion matters. Businesses aren't listening to the science. But when it comes down to consensus items, it needs to be useful. People who go to NB right now don't care. How do you keep people in NB safe in that environment? I don't think anyone will listen to the rule, unless we hardcore lock the door and have only one person with the key.
Robert: I was thinking offhandedly, what if we started with 4 per space for moving purposes. As the weeks go on, maybe we can increase. If it gets worse, we can change it. It's a fluid thing, and we can change it.
pyconaut: Saying 15 people is normal for NB numbers, while 4 is a number with NB closed makes sense. There is a psychological thing about saying a number and giving enough emphasis on it, people will try to follow it. People might think, "If there are people at NB already, should I even bother going?" Even if the rule is broken, it will deter people. While a large number will enable them. I think this consensus item is about being a deterrent. We could get a lock where it's really hard to copy the key. That would be a worthwhile investment for the new space. I think we should have low enough number that it's a deterrent. In my experience, 4 is enough to move NB.
Za: I agree with pyconaut and Robert. It's a slippery slope with trying to predict how people will react. There's a precedent for this, during the 2.0 reboot. NB was falling apart, people were not following rules. People were sleeping in the space, selling drugs, shooting up heroin in the restrooms, etc. There was a huge mice infestation. It was really bad.
We have precident for a time when noisebridge was closed down and was done outside of concensus
We are in just as extreme a case now, and we can take action.
Za: I saw that these steps weren't being taken, and I was shocked. I thought they were already being taken. If this was NB 5 years ago, people would be like, why are we having this discussion. I am disabled, all I can do is write this consensus item. If we can have an agreement about this, it's not going to hurt. If we make this more transparent it will be better for everyone and will keep people safe.
Tyler: I'm convinced by your logic, pyconaut, that setting a 4 person limit and having people break the rule is better than having a 10 person limit and having 20 people in the space. I withdraw my block. I'm not able to physically enforce it though.
Za: I think we're heading towards a discussion item, so can we wrap up this consensus item?
Pyconaut: I propose that we bring this item to concensus. can I get a second? Za: second
lxpk: I have a question - a general low limit is a deterrent, but there are cases where we might need more than 4 people, like moving the laser cutter. If there's an operation that requires more tha 4 people, we should have a safety coordinator to make sure it's done right.
pyconaut: There's no physical way we'll ever get the laser cutter out of the building unless the elevator is working. The only other way to get it out is to open the window in front and hire a crane. In that case, it wouldn't be us moving it. Another thing, all the items so heavy they require more than 4 people to move, we'd be using a dolly and some sort of stair dolly. Those items we will leave till the very end. We can't even plug them in at the new space since we don't have 240W outlet.
<back to consensus>
lxpk: If we have an operation that requires more than the limit, does this consensus item allow for that?
Za: I appreciate that question. As it's written, it doesn't say one way or the other. The previous consensus item does say that consensed actions are an exception to the closure of the space.
Pyconaut: Do we have any members that block the item
Members present: Tyler Pyconaut Za LXPK
(Add any new items for consensus to the Current Consensus Items page.)
Discussion Item 1
pyconaut: Just some moving updates! Right now based on the form we had people filled out, we have 60 responses. I'm going to resend out this form with updates. There were a few issues with the old form, so I couldn't actually efficiently segment out all the things we need to do for the move. I'm creating about 10 new Slack channels and new categories on Discuss related to moving. I'll send out the new form tomorrow. It will include some new questions, but it will only let people sign up for one thing they want to help out on.
I will start hosting a weekly moving update & planning meeting. The time will be decided based on the responses to the Google form. We still have some time before the lease is fully signed. Once we have the lease signed, one of the first things we'll try to have done is figure out electrical work in the new space. If anyone has plan ideas, lxpk and I will have a 3D model of the new space done soon (next couple of days). Check Discuss, where I will be mainly posting. Any comments?
Tyler: Have you seen my MS Paint drawings of the new space? They're in #new-space on Slack.
pyconaut: Yes. I think that made sense for the inspection, but for ventilation we could have it go straight up the back. We should have proper ventilation this time around for the wood and metal shop. It would be nice to not have a couple millimeters of dust on every orifice and on my clothes.
Robert: I went to school for CAD stuff, so I can help. I do have Fusion 360 and PreCAD(?).
pyconaut: We're using Sketch Up 2018, which is free. Not the web one, but the downloadable one.
Za: I have FreeCAD.
pyconaut: We're using Sketch Up because it's really easy to port into Unity. We will need people to 3D model our various tools. lxpk and I have been working on getting a working model of NB in VR.
https://help.sketchup.com/en/downloading-older-versions the 2017 make version is free
Robert: Do we have channel for this?
pyconaut: Yes. Building planning will be in #moving-engineering on Slack, engineering sub category in moving category on Discuss.
Za: Moving related question - is there a way for us to show what's valuable to move? And make sure that important stuff does not get thrown out
pyconaut: #cleaning and #dejunkening on Slack and discuss