Meeting Notes 2022 08 09

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These are the notes from the The 689th Meeting of Noisebridge.

Date: 2022_08_09

Previous Meeting

Next Meeting

Note-takers: Mark, Steven

Moderators: TJ

  • One or two bullet points of high-level meeting summary.

Meeting Summary[edit]


TLDR what happened at the meeting:

  • Fundraising Update
  • Announcements:
  • Finances:
  • New members:
  • New philanthropists:
  • Consensus Items:
  • Discussion Items:


  • Ask people to share their name, access needs, and preferred gender pronouns during their intro, i.e.:
  • Person1 - she/her - people please say names when speaking (i am low vision) - something i do
  • Person2 - they/them - no access needs - first time here, hello
  • and so on

TJ - he/him - AI/Robotics, have a guild Farley - Web dev, and book club. No assigned reading, just talk books. Host free code camp on Fridays. It's fun Aja - I like to hack on stuff at Noisebridge, occasionally host Circuit Hacking MOnday Rai - he/him - started coming a week or two ago, getting more immersed in the community. AI/open source software, personal organization, electronics Neal - visiting from NJ (Fubar labs), wanted to see your deal Steven (Stefan) - from Switzerland, involved in a hackerspace and in the FabLab Zurich. Did freecodecamp on Friday Mark - I do videogame stuff and Guilds Loren - work on rack things, or so I say, talk to me about Wiki things! Phillip @Pawper - couple weeks new. Sunday streets (VR component), Code guild , Project CMS project Cloud - trying to help put together Sunday Streets and help increase engagement, still trying to find my niche within the community


Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other.

(What does that mean? Everyone is expected to follow the Anti-Harassment Policy, please familiarize yourself with it.) TWO MINUTES MAX

Noisebridge gives you a lot of freed to do things, under do-ocracy, but in order to do that, there is also a lot of responsibility that comes with that (see: spiderman quote)

Farley - Be nice to people, clean up after yourself, and don't abuse the space.

Check out #bravespace for conflict resolution. Dis-Engagement is the first step. Mediation can come later if necessary. Please have a look at the wiki if you're interested in more.

Short announcements and events[edit]

  • 60-second description per item in bulletpoint.
  • Copy-paste any pre-announcements for the upcoming meeting from Announcements.
  • After announcements, copy them to the past Announcements list. Retire any from the Next Meeting list that aren't marked ONGOING.

Classes that happen:

   - Writer's Guild (Tuesday)
   - Neurohacking (Tuesday)
   - Gamebridge (Wednesday)
   - AI (Wednesday)
   - Book Club (Thursdays)
   - Sewing Meetup (Fridays)
   - Blender (Potentially Fridays)
   - Lasertraining (Sunday)

Phillip has a coding class? Phillip - yeah go check out the "coding guild" page on the wiki. Would like to setup a variety coding workshop on Mondays (explore three.js, procedural generation, WebAssembly, Rust, ...). Still have to do a lot of setup before properly announcing it. Hoping to do the first one in September!

OpenRobotics Meetup on Thursday 5 PM. People from OpenCV, DVI, OpenRobotics will be there.

Metaguild meeting at 7 on Thursday 7-8pm. Come to that if you'd like to talk about the organization of noisebridge groups!

Writer's workshop is wondering if we should be a guild or participate in noisebridge in some greater way.

MArk - good question: let's talk about it later. Either in discussion or online. I am Arity on discord.

5 minutes of fame (5MoF)- next Thursday starting at 8 PM. 5 minute lightning talks by noisebridgers (and guests)!


Sunday Streets is the 21st! 2 Sundays from now. We need more volunteers to help with it! Should be added to the google-calendar.

Google Calendar? There is currently a ICS on NBShed populated from meetup. We should figure out how to merge ICs feeds

New Members/Associate Members[edit]

What are they? Is anyone trying to become a Member or Associate Member? If not move on. No long discussions.

No one *needs* to be a Member. Members can sponsor more Associate/Members and can block big-C Consensus. As a member, it is not mandatory to attend meetings.

Associate Member - monthly donation, Member approval,

Not mandatory to attend meetings as a Member or Associate Member

Phillip - I should be ready soon (~2 months). Wanted to put it out there, for anyone interested in supporting me. I'm looking to start that process of becoming a Member, beginning of October.

Mark - At your own pace.

Phillip - I'll pick [an application] up at the space

Mark is in his second week of Member application.

(Some discussion of how membership works and how/why people apply)

Financial Report[edit]

Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.

Water bill was not billed to us, but to someone else, Lizzard is trying to figure out what happened.

Landlord says we owe some money because the rent increased, but we hadn't been paying the increased rate. We are like 4500$ in arrears that we intend to pay back ASAP. How much runway do we have, given rent hike? That's the big question $119 in donation boxes this week.

Insurance for the space doesn't cover us for all that much, we are looking into alternatives.

Making progress on transferring bank account holder privileges.

Sort of similar to recent history.

Maybe of interest - sudoroom asked us to share that they need donations - they are having trouble right now and need help! They miss 900k due in December 2022.

Phillip - have we considered doing something like a discounted combined membership with sudoroom? thus incentivizing more folks to become sudoroom members!

not a bad idea!

Spending Needs[edit]

Gotta spend money on XYZ (i.e. Gate, wiring etc.). WHO CAN SIGN THE CHECK OR LEND THE CREDIT CARD!?!?! It doesn't matter if we agree to do something and it can’t be paid for.

Fundraising Update[edit]

How's it all going What kinds of fundraising do we do? There are some events at noisebridge where there can be some extra money coming in. Hack comedy has been a good donation generator, its coming up Saturday the 13th!

Resident Electronic Music brings people every month and can potentially draw donations.

Roguelike celebration is pretty good.

We have done Galas/parties in the past as fundraisers!

Let's ask for donations at Sunday Streets!

Mark - alright people get on creating some fundraiseing events!

Big C Consensus Items[edit]

Nobody likes 3 hour meetings, only explain if people ask

Consensus Items [edit]

Only for talking about Big C consensus items, small c consensus items should be discussed with people at the space at the time of the change/new item.


Discussion Item 1[edit]

Slack / Discord Mark - Add more discussion items below

Mark - So the slack / discord issue is:

   We're trying to have a healthy integration of discussion channels, lots of questions re communication. Slack has private talks going on, some Discord goes to Slack. People working on bridging. Which ones should go where? Not exact correspondence between places. What channels should be private. If anyone has things they want to say...

Rai - Both seem like equal honest, surprised there is no Matrix. I'll be going on Matrix

Mark - IT's not one-to-one. Only some go on their corresponding channels

Rai - the thing that's annoying to me about this, is that there are two different communication channels, some things happen on X other things happen on Y, even more on Z, etc...

Loren - This meeting is where coordination happens. Plenty of people who I only meet after months. Natural to have groups that only interact when needed

TJ - We're almost moving to discord for a lot of things, except for a few specific things - namely "conflict resolution" and money stuff

Cloud - how many people does Slack / Discord combo bother? It's whatever for me. This has happened a few times where I lead people to Slack / Discord.

TJ - it confuses people because they dont know where to look, they get inundated with tons and tons of messages coming through. We lose a lot of street cred with open platform community, etc

Phillip - I agree with drive to live in open source and do FOSS. I want to meet people where they are at (e.g., Discord). I'm not on Matrix. Would Matrix make it harder for many people to get on? I think so. The onus should be on open source chat to facilitate leading people from Discord to these new chat apps. (Loren seconds this)

It's also beneficial to encourage more community because more community = more $$$. We do need spaces that are not necessarily private, but something more difficult to enter. I don't like gatekeeping, but we should have a mediation/meeting room. Should have a place where people can't constantly interrupt. We'll probably lose a ton of people (TJ seconds this)

Aja - XMTP can be client-agnostic. Coudl be available through , IRC, email, relay through Slack. What is alienating is forcing people to give up their personal data, use something that they goes against morally.

Phillip - careful we are not losing people if we abandon communication channels.

Loren - clarifying quesiton: What is the Action Item? Do we want to go away from chat apps? Who are we willing to exclude by disavowing. Example: Not using Slack anymore. If we're not deleting anything, what are we deciding?

Mark - My question is do we need Slack. Discord is more transparent for Noisebridge. What Slack channels need to be private on Slack. Only one is discord-admin chat

Aja - Could just make private Discord channels.

Mark - ok. Private Slack channels to private Discord counterparts.

Aja - Matrix can do total mirroring.

Cloud - maybe throw out baby with the bathwater. That was there in 2019. That's how we connect currently. Could be compromise. Interesting if Matrix attracts open source. I'm curious if throwing away is helpful.

Mark - Have we answered that question? Didn't we determine we're not throwing anything away?

Cloud - People are saying they are throwing out, maybe that's rash. It's been working so far?

MArk - Is there anyone suggesting getting rid of a platform? (No one responds, I take that as "no")

Farley - Maybe we can try to get people to funnel into Discord.

LX - I think that what's interesting is that everyone has preferences. Interesting is ability to bridge channels, act as if same tool. Everything I propose in terms of activity channels, we've bridged all those. We're using Matrix to bridge those. If Matrix client works, then everyone is happy. We're going to announce channels we bridge a week in advance, so people have a chance to raise objections. #hackitorium should be #general, so people aren't confused. No #bravespace or #space-guardians connections. We can announce that sensitive channels stay bridge. Use pure matrix in the future

Person who's new - it's a lot to figure out, its very difficult for me to get a grip on what's what because there is so much

Steven (Stefan) - I'd like to add a little twist - I've attended lots of meetings about this kind of topic. People don't see in the beginning that communication channels act as a quick wiki over time. I realize it should be documented, but it doesn't always happen. It has a lot of accumulated knowledge over the years. Certain channels have flaws where you can't access communication anymore. Slack changed policy on how they keep policy. The longer communication graph is, the more valuable it becomes.

LX - I think that because we are nonprofit, we have unlimited history. LEt us know if Slack history is going away.

Neal - Slack is *not* unlimited in free version, so you do lose if you want to maintain history

(We have Pro version)

TJ - things like AI, electronics are dead and haven't been bridged with discord (possibly dead because they havent been bridged).

  people who see a message from a "bot" type thing thats from the bridge and they respond incorrectly because its not a "both ways" bridge
  What is the main purpose of the conversation?

Mark - We're trying to figure out what needs to be bridged. PRivate things may not need to be bridged?

Phillip - Does Matrix support private channels. If we added something on website so people could go to Noisebridge's chats directly through the website in a browser. WE'd have all benefits, no complaints about Slack.

Loren - Matrix supports private channels

LX - Involves people switching to Matrix

Phillip - just for special use cases for private channels

Also if people are interested, their are computers in the space that have direct access to discord.

LX - also discord is a webapp so you dont need to install anything

Forcing people who have been on Slack channel to stop using Slack to use a web based client, leads to missing links. I'm not for disrupting existing channels

TJ - I kind of take the opposite stance - people thought it would be "the end of the world" if no one used Discourse ( - however no one uses it right now and everything is just fine

Phillip - we can develop bots, alternative way to communicate that's open source on the website. we have bots that remind people they can go to and chat. Encourage people to do the right thing. Without taking away their options.

Mark - Let's work on that in parallel.

LX - I don't think its necessarily excellent to "shame people" for their tech choices. I don't want to get spammed telling me I'm using the wrong software. (referring to the bots telling people things idea)

Phillip - I agree. Its not excellent to spam people. My use of the word "annoy" was problably wrong and leading in the wrong way. We could be nice and not annoying whilst still suggesting to people some good alternative comms platforms.

Aja - You could opt out of bots.

TJ - building a chat app is good idea - go for it! And increase our Matrix bridges! Aja - XMTP server on the website, loging for everyone, communication with everybody

Mark - talk in #metaguild about this!

(that was a very productive conversation, thanks everyone! -Phillip)

Discussion Item 2[edit]

Farley - I'd like to open discussion on best way to resolve do-ocratic disputes. Recently had disputes with @broccoli about graffiti in the stairwell.

I had said that anytime I saw someone graffitiing on the walls, I would ask them to stop. So I did with Broccoli.

Was looking at the wiki regarding small-c consensus things. Would like to share my understanding and get feedback. I understand it to be "whoever is in the space at the moment".

I think it is allowed to ask people to stop doing to things.

LX - I think it's an interesting question - small-C consensus is a matter of consulting the opinions of people are around. So it's subject to people who are around. You might get a different answer depending on the day or crowd.

My understanding is it depends on who's around and further discussion / wisdom. W.r.t. art, it's outline in the Decorating Noisebridge site. WE had this principle that most things are reversible. Things that aren't are big-C consensus items. Even other things like spending could be brought into meeting like big-C consensus. If someone does something, and someone decides to undo it, they can. Please be excellent and responsible with each other in the process. As long as it's reversible. It can be undone.

Farley - Not reversible. Painting walls is not considered temporary or easily reversible.

LX - People went nuts with something on the wall. People asked to erase it, and eventually did it themselves. General principle

Farley - My question is about the small-C consensus itself. It's not about art, it's about disagreements. Can I ask someone who I think is damaging to stop? Do they have to stop? If someone is alone, what are limits to what they can do?

LX - reversibility is key. Someone tried to rip apart the VR cart because they were high and bored. We convinced them to stop. We spent money, and had money invested. That's the kind of thing that would require immediate stopping.

Farley - I would propose to change small - C consensus to be more descriptive

LX - Proposed language?

Farley - I'd like to specify whether or not there are dissenters.

LX - Proposed hack - if you feel strongly enough, you essentially block it. It would only come up in consensus. Strongly communicate before action. One-sentence proposal. Someone decides to do something drastic on the way out, they can't stop it. One way is to add Consensus proposal. That's how existing procedures cover this.

LX - If you see small C consensus item that needs escalation, go to big-C consensus LX - It could be used to raise big C consensus at something they don't like, then drop it last minute

TJ - something recently happened and people discussed it in bravespace and we came to some sort of conclusion on how to handle it. Your situation is interesting, because what happens when their is a dispute when theres not really a good way to compromise? Its not really fair to either side.

Direct response from Joe - this could be a violation of personal space / opinions.

LX - The whole concept of do-ocracy with excellence: Small-c, do-ocratic things are things no one objects to. Unequivocally excellent. The moment it is controversial, it starts to become less reversible, and more doing something with permanent repurcussions and angering people at Noisebridge. Don't do stuff that's po'ing people, ask first. I'd propose a consensus item to counter it.

(Mark offers mediation in specific farley-broccoli dispute)

Aja - Super complicated issue, no clear answer. Discussion is really really important. We have a tendency to break it down and analyze systematically, but I think it's wrong approach. Most people, if you ask friend not to do something and they do it anyway. That's not a good friend. Need to come together as a ocommunity. Need to have a conversation.

Mark - Due diligence of documenting it. If we all clearly know what the culture is it is easier to convey.

Aja - part of de-escalation. If someone can block Members, you can also block actions. If they're not comfortable, don't do it. Most of these issues should be at an interpersonal level, not with the space.

Phillip - It's an anarchist space so unless there is big C consensus it's not gonna stick because excellence is volunteered / realized not enforced. It's not about art then what is it about? Is this a safety issue or purely opinion? Paint has fumes/smells. Wet paint is wet. It *is* excellent to ask before painting walls. If it's more than a disagreement then ask them to leave / conflict resolution / mediation / big C consensus. Farley - it has to do with the do-ocratic disagreements. Suggested Phillip was blocking wiki edit

Phillip - I am *not* blocking putting better language on the wiki. There is more to the conversation, this is conversation about do-ocratic conflict, but also what is allowed at Noisebridge + big-C consensus item that is there. If not ok with little-c consensus, then it's big-C consensus. Bring forward this as big-C consensus item. Frustrating that this is being asserted without background information.

Aja - One thing you mentioned that it was anarchy and people won't be excellent. I disagree. Excellence comes before anarchy. Freedom is important, but only if we're excellent to each other (Mark + TJ + Philip second this)

Phillip - I agree. I wouldn't want to smell paint fumes while in meeting. I don't know what was going through person's head - asking before painting on walls is an explicit example of excellence per the wiki. But policing people is also not excellent. I agree that excellency is what we're trying to do.

Mark - What happened is there is a conflict as to what was excellent in whichever case. One side claims they can't speak up, another says they are being policed, which is also unexcellent.

Phillip - I think it goes both ways. This is not the venue for hashing out details. If the agenda item is the do-ocracy conflict with excellence, then it's for conflict resolution / big C consensus

Steven (Stefan) – I heard some discussion about the building/stuff. I'm used to trying conflict handling with holocratic models. In this thinking model, you're usually asked «does it cause harm to your role». So if your role is being a member; is it really causing harm when stuff is changed/used? Especially if another member is doing it? Usually, you have the same/similar aim but different taste. So if you would like to have something regulated/managed/organized, maybe give someone (group) a role about responsibility for that particular thing/stuff.

TJ - so you are talking about things as like a confederacy of people in different groups who manage things - its very much like our guilds thing. Definitely can help with certain situations. This may be more general. We don't have an interior design guild, for instance. Our current "role" is anyone who eneters the space can be a designer. So if everyone is this, then who is the authority when we don't agree on these kinds of changes? What is the limits of do-ocracy in this regard? I've had similar problems with people just moving stuff around and they ignore lots of requests because the stronger willed people simply win out. = Farley - I'd like to hopefully close this convo by saying I want to change the wiki with my idea of small-c to big-C transition

LX - if we want to actually sketch this out in how this works in practice, it is kind of like a flow chart with steps - similar to our conflict resolution guidelines. Easy to understand for some who isn't steeped in the culture

Aja - There's a fine line between asking for rules and infringing on do-ocracy. It's explicitly said to not be afraid to step on toes. In theory, we can have stepping on toes and making a mess. Also, we need to have guilds / active community of people who care about the space. At a certain point, it fixes itself. for example, sewing room crew maintain their space pretty well Should instill community, and inspire. Do not make rules, bc that loses do-ocracy

Phillip - just a quick note - it wasn't clarified but if it IS a safety issue (paint fumes, wet paint) then def ask them to stop/leave and it's excellent to explain why

Mark - if someone accuses you of policing behavior, seek mediation, since its not exactly a traditional "conflict" in the "conflict resolution" sense

Philip - it is unexcellent to not bring up WHY something is unexcellent and try to convey the already existing community consensus, if it exists. If someone keeps doing the un-excellent thing and conversation has been attempted - escalate to others.

Mark - keep an eye on the "do-ocracy" wiki page folks

Do-ocratic Task Board[edit]

Participation also means doing stuff to contribute to the space. Propose new tasks or pick some tasks from GitHub, from what needs to be done around you, or whatever, and see if someone will sign up to work on that task. Anyone can sign up and it's a great way to show you are contributing!

Check-out round[edit]

End of Meeting[edit]

Note taker posts the notes[edit]

  • Clean and tidy the meeting notes including removing all these really verbose instructions.
  • Fill out the short summary at the top listing just announcements, consensus items, discussion topics, and names of new members and philanthropists.
  • Copy paste the notes to the next meeting page. (They will become Last meeting at midnight.)
  • Email the meeting summary to Noisebridge Discuss and Noisebridge Announce lists.
  • CC on the email and if there are new members and philanthropists.
  • Edit the Current Consensus Items if anything is proposed for consensus next week.
  • Edit the Consensus Items History if anything was reached consensus or failed to reach consensus this week.

Fun things to do after[edit]

  • Do a 10 minute cleanup, bring dishes up stairs and wash them, clean the bathroom
  • Have some beers on the patio
  • Prepare the next weeks' meeting notes
  • Lick the walls. Or just draw on them
  • sing the Hackernationale (this almost never happens)