Meeting Notes 2024 03 05

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These are the notes from the The 758th Meeting of Noisebridge.

Date: 2024_03_05

Previous Meeting

Next Meeting

Note-takers: Moof, Quinn, Loren, Daniel

Moderators: Zoda

  • Community processes 86 of Sam, and 86 of John, and agrees we need time before reconsidering.
  • Ask Stone to leave.
  • Feb Finance update

Meeting Summary[edit]

Include: TLDR what happened at the meeting:

  • Fundraising Update:
  • Announcements:
   Fashion Show on Saturday
  • Finances: Feb 2024 / Revenue: 6,507.95 (down from >8,000.00) / Expenses: 11,189.31
  • New members: -
  • New associates: -
  • Consensus Items: -
  • Discussion Items:
    • (Try to have good faith in the other people)
    • Sam - sounds like the process of 86'ing Sam was relatively by the book.
    • John - In the case of John, no one (present) contests the facts, he was sleeping in the space.
    • Spend request to improve the RFID -- incident where someone messed with the access system, wires were cut, the spend request is to authorize up to $200
    • Space next door - we don't seem to be able to manage 1 space with 2 floors now. (Space is rented by someone already too)
    • Stone - was Asked to Leave for a week. Said he won't return.


  • Ask people to share their name, access needs, and preferred gender pronouns what they do at noisebridge

Name/Word That You Nerd Out About

  • Zoda: Noisebridge
  • Quinn: Ornithopter
  • Weezy: Acceptance
  • charline yoga dancing singing business
  • olivia: osint
  • mike: forgiveness
  • john: perserverence
  • fromsa:
  • ben: blockchain
  • ben:
  • brennen:ft
  • elan: wikipedia
  • jess: lazers
  • mark: open source / mars
  • ken: stone
  • loren: infrastructure

joined later

  • shah:
  • Colton:
  • jill
  • (others?)

Short announcements and events[edit]

  • 60-second description per item in bulletpoint.
  • Copy-paste any pre-announcements for the upcoming meeting from Announcements.

mark: preparing for board weezy: fashion show on sunday Brennan: ken isworking on quote for plumbing, then we can do the wall!! Lets make thehackatorium an amazing place to be!!


Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other. (On first Tuesdays, seek a few definitions. Other Tuesday, give a 1-3 sentence summary.)

What does that mean? Please see our page on excellence!

Anti-Harassment Policy & Community Standards of Excellence[edit]

Noisebridge has an Anti-Harassment Policy Everyone is expected to follow the Anti-Harassment Policy, please familiarize yourself with it.) TWO MINUTES MAX More approachable & specific guidelines, is one way to quickly raise issues which will be seen by people in Slack.

Brief Kudos[edit]

Recent examples of excellent behavior, say 3, unless the passion moves you.

Elan to Weezy: thanks for cleaning the bathrooms Weezy to Brandon: thanks for mitigating the crazy things that's been happening around here Moof to Xche: Ice Bath event Mars to Sam: for caring about people in all hours of the night Stone to Woodshop John: for putting things together and cleaning up


  • What are guilds - briefly describe (much like the previous section on "Excellence")
  • Flaschen Taschen ppl are getting it GOING AGAIN !!!

New Members/Associate Members[edit]

What are they? Is anyone trying to become a Member or Associate Member? If not move on. No long discussions.

Financial Report (first Tuesday of month only)[edit]

Anarchist societies under a capitalist state need money to survive and thrive, yo.

Loren: Feb 2024 / Revenue: 6,507.95 / Expenses: 11,189.31 - Interested in help with regular duties - focusing on one-off tasks. - Shah / Moon - offered to help with setup for Coinbase Enterprise.

Elan: building inspector. Permit. - Got new floorplan approved - Someone still needs to go through the Change of Use permit. Ken volunteered.

Spending Needs[edit]

Gotta spend money on XYZ (i.e. Gate, wiring etc.). WHO CAN SIGN THE CHECK OR LEND THE CREDIT CARD!?!?! It doesn't matter if we agree to do something and it can’t be paid for.

Fundraising Update[edit]

How's it all going

Big C Consensus Items[edit]

Nobody likes 3 hour meetings, only explain if new people are present.

Consensus Items [edit]

Only for talking about Big C consensus items, small c consensus items should be discussed with people at the space at the time of the change/new item. spend request for rfid solar panels on roof quietbridge at the space next door behavior of stone

Discussion Items[edit]

Template... [num]: [topic-short][edit]

From/Raised by: Seeking: decision/outcome/advice/[?] On topic:

Discussion 1: RFID spend request[edit]

From/Raised by: Elan: an incident where someone cut some wires on the access system. Seeking: Spending authorization On topic: A spend request to improve that system, and to put all the electronics in the locked medal box. Asking for approx 230$ of reimbursement after the repair has been made

Discussion 2: Key and Access Control Summary 2[edit]

From/Raised by: Seeking: Decision: Do we update the rest of the locks to match the new ones, or revert front door locks to On topic: JD changed the locks. He only changed the gate and the front door, the sewing room, machine shop, are still the same. We can either agree as a community to bring back the old locks. The new pin code is [redacted show up lol] Mark: was the lock change consensus? Elan: Small c consensus John: I trust JD's Judgement, on account of excellent past behavior. Its such a point of contention that nothing would happen without do-ocracy! Ken: Main problem is that none of the community was notified!! How will I get access??? Zota: ditto JD: we did drop the ball on the communication, but people who had keys were 86'd and the mediators did not want them returning to the space. Weezy: this can be unexcellent Ken: Who has the authority that made that decision? Elan: not an explicit request for keys to be changed, but there were discussions leading up to it that changing the keys addressed. There was a GC, it was limited to 10 people discord limit John: I have no problem returning key after we have communication Loren: All the mediators agreed that this should be done. However, the members dropped the ball on communicating with the rest of the space. I appologize for the disruption caused, and I hope we can find process to avoid this. Fromsa: Why are the decisions not happening here? I dont know what happens on discord, I am anti social media. I consider changing the locks and appologizing after a big mistake. Mark: it is unexcellent to change locks. That effects everybody. Ken: clarifying, the gravity is not that the keys were changed. The gravity is that nobody was notified, or informed who made the decision. I dont think that the space was in danger. I think the decision was rushed and unilateral. Elan: The keys were changed with the understanding that the RFID worked. The digital space Moof: Was the RFID changed within the last week? (yes) Therefore, the problem is that Olivia: If this is the meeting where someone who conducts in the online space would know Fromsa: If the discussion happens here, we should have certain discusions in person. Ellen: didn't one of the 86'd ppl offer to give up their key? This is an issue between safety and convenience. If there were physical dangers, key changes first and informing people later is justified. There is no flaw with procedure. My safety trumps my access. Zoda: what could have been done differently? what should we do next time? Fromsa: stop banning people. If you ban people, dont ban them virtually. Dont act on something because you felt something. Keys should change with advanced notice, and regularly John: if personal safety is at risk, keys should be changed first and appologies given. The personal safety of our team members is tanamount in any given situation Mars: Raise your hand if you found Sam or John a physical threat to you. Raise your hand if you found frustration with being locked out of the space. 6/27 Moof: I want to make it very clear that there are people that I will not agree with and I want to leave it as agreeing to disagree. Thanks for showing up and thanks for caring. Ellen: Weezy: There are people who will be banned from here, racists, lived here, squatted here, I moved this space with two other people, if you are aggressive, violent, you are not welcome here. EHR: Agreed Ken: There has a good reason to change kick people out and to change the locks. What is the most harm that these two people will bring to the community besides being dickheads. John: Elan: It was only recently that I got a key, historically this was only through RFID, someone drove a key to my place and told me to allow Fromsa in, I feel like the communication sucked, there was a path where this was done and everyone still has access and that wasn't done Ellen: People are saying John and Sam are not imposing safety risks -- John vaped regularly in the space, the fact that the very first person that I saw on Saturday when he was ATLed and then 86ed was a big shock. When it comes down to safety and convenience, safety comes first SolderFumes: someone had cut the RFID Quinn: Disappointment at locks being changed without telling the entire community Brandon: If you let someone in the space, you must feel responsible for letting them here Ben: can we acknowledge that the doors was messed up in every way. trying to lock out people who lock pick for a profession, how effective is this anyway Zoda: Somebody removed the doorlatch, then someone cut the RFID, ... Elan: When the locks are changed, there should be an announcement Ben: You should not make an announcement, you should discuss the lock change before changing the locks -- it seems reasonable that to change the locks for a community, you should give people the keys to the lock Mars: if locks are changed, it should happen after a meeting Colton: if there's a board that decides a person should be removed, then that should happen, but if there isn't then why are they're removed. Who has authority to make that decision. Elan: Anarchist space, there are no hierarchies -- so basically all the rules were created through the consensus process. The board is constrained through the consensus process. They are empowered to enforce 86s. Zoda: All systems for getting in, the key lock, the gate, and RFID was cut -- Mars: Board members should be listed Brennan: read about notes on the wiki -- they made these rules because they had severe problems. Ben: Names of members, there's an election coming up. Brennan: Stop sleeping here. Before you get heated about how Noisebridge should be, you should read about its history. Advocating for people to be here who were living here, that's not okay with me. Shaw: John/Sam were not living here but did spend a lot of time here. We all want to hack, we want to make things, we want to be a tribe. People who have violated rules we should judicate that and etc. If there is true proof, then we should do carry out punishments.. etc. We need grace for each other to grow. We shouldn't fire someone because we don't like them. Weezy: Can we move on from the door. Zoda: Let's just be calm.

Discussion 3: Sam/John[edit]

From/Raised by: Seeking: decision/outcome/advice/[?] On topic:

Zoda: Everything happened for a reason Mars: John should be present, can we take a democratic vote to let John in, maybe let him in to listen to his accusations Zoda: John can come in on Jitsi Elan: I came into the situation with the Sam incident, only good interactions with Sam, incident with Sam and another individual were using the space in a way that is automatically 86-ible I was not aware of all the incidents. I offered to mediate, this isn't a safety issue, I thought there would be an agreement -- what if we ATL (Asked to Leave) I talked to Sam on Thursday -- in a few months we can laugh about that. I want to be explicit that this is unexcellent behavior. Sam brought a proposal -- a proposal for a way to come back as an Associate Member. Two months asked to leave, Loren would be asked to take down all the public postings. Typically the way bad behavior is addressed at Noisebridge, Sam has a history of doing good at the space, I was looking forward to starting the clock on Sam's ATL -- during the time and consideration, please take time to think but take it as an ATL, during the mediation, he rejected the proposal, from that the Board at a special process to 86, Sam still has avenues to rejoin the community, the avenues are there is a form, there's some track record that the community can trust me again. As a part of the 86, his membership is being revoked, which he can appeal. During the Board Meeting where this happened, all the involved parties.. we all recused ourselves from the vote (abstained from the vote) I was trying to put everything forward, which is why everything is on Discord. Mars: Three questions: can we hook into the projector, are there rules on no sex or nudity in the space, second -- third, public to see a vote (factual requests)

Fromsa interjected, something about dumbass and meeting too long, and has been asked to leave, for the meeting tonight.

Mars: I just want to see where there says no nudity and no sex. Can we take a moment to show. I want to see the rules. Ben: precedence for allowing nudity Elan: Ample announcement for nudity Mars: Can we see this Brennan: I started to come to Noisebridge, Sam was awesome. Sam was great. In november I had a week off of work, I would hear people having sex in the space. Sam was approached multiple times since November -- Sam promised JD this would not happen again, JD was taking some people through the space for a tour when they all heard sex in the metal(?) room. Shortly after they heard sex in the music room Ben: Zoda: asks Ben to leave for interrupting Elan: under the ask to leave, it is excellent to respect the ask to leave Zoda: Ben asked to leave again Brennan: Sam and Sophia were found naked in the music room. We were trying to have a conversation about the length of the ATL and that was difficult. We tried to stop this since November -- the whole rule is to be excellent to each other Mike: I think Sam should take 2 months ATL Shaw: Everyone doing the moderation here wants to -- how do you help your tribe? My understanding is that Sam's personal life has been on a downward spiral. If after 3 months, he doens't come back, and giving them grace, I would support that. That being said, when people violate that, they should not come back. But I think we can all agree that Sam is a good hacker and has brought a lot to the table -- we have emotions we don't know how to do with them.. Zoda: I want to correct a little bit which is my side of the story. Sam was one of my favorite people when I first got here. I haven't been coming here as much, I left around September and came back in November -- John updated us everything that had happened, Sam using the space for sex, my first impression of that was that not everything should be so brittle. There are times people sleep here, shower here, use drugs here.. the fact that he was sloppy with it, drugs, heated blanket.. noisebridge is not made for that. I came into that not about the 86, the initial conversation was supposed to be about ATL. I've been involved with this since November and I think it's unfair that people say that we're dictators. Sam was on ATL for a week, said no to the ATL. Brandon: Quinn: can be intermediatry Mars/Speaking for Sam: Sam is willing to ATL for six months Shaw: most of us want to see some kind of punishment for his bad behavior Ken: 86 is too harsh of punishment, Sam is going through something, but it will settle down eventually Elan: I agree in general, for non safety issues, the punishment should be to admit fault and try to do better, I'm curious how people think how people should have acted different, I would like to see Sam get better, Sam has said things that can be easily disproven, I just want to see the space functioning and I would like to see Sam become an excellent member again. The standing ask to leave was not respected. I don't want to guess what's in his head or what would change his mind and behavior. But now he is going to fess up to bad behavior so there's that. Jill: The first thing is that if you set a boundary and he disrespected that boundary, if we're thinking about repealing the 86 -- an 86 is not permanent. Elan: The only way to reinforce the rules is an ask to leave or 86. Loren: 86 - is a permanent Ask to Leave it is technically distinct from membership. But people who are 86'd need to stay out of the physical and online spaces Brennan: I encourage people to reach out to him that he will be receptive to. What I would like people to understand the why we need to protect community. We want to make a place for the next ten Sams to be here. We did this mediation process, did you know everything that had happened. It hurt the community, we tried to resolve it. Mars: The shortest ATL we have is two months, the longest we have is 6 months. Jonathan: If you're suspended from school, a week is a long time. In my mind, and I didn't know asked to leave really means. Mars: Is anyone saying that Sam should stay away longer than 6 months. Brandon: The community is more than willing to let him back but at this point he is 86ed. Brennan: ATL is to ask the members to leave and to think about their behavior. Ken: Most people would say that Sam is an exception and not the rule. Nobody knows how long it will take for him to come back, I don't think there should be a definite amount of time for 86. Shaw: There are two people getting 86d here. There was unexcellent behavior. There should be punishment. I don't think you should be punished for being a moderator. Zoda: I know there's a lot of people here who want Sam back. This group cannot undo an 86. Right now, Sam is 86. This has been transparent since November. Now everyone's here and I feel like you are backpedalling. And Sam, again, has a great track record. With love, he did this to himself and there are somethings that feel like heresay. There's a way of undoing it. I adore Sam and I don't think he should have access to the space until he is ready to rebuilt community and trust. Elan: Being at Noisebridge is a privilege and not a right. We can say "Sam, this was unexcellent, in whatever amount of time it takes for you to reassess and come back" would be okay. Mars: There's been a loss of trust around Sam, there's also been a loss of trust around communicators. No consensus on sex and nudity in the space. What is the repeal process. Brennan: It's disturbing that people are advocating for no consequences. Jill: John Potter has told me multiple times that Stone has been abusive towards his wife in this space. Brennan:


Mars: Sam has emailed the mediation email. Ken (who is a big M member) and is willing to help mediate Sam's 86. Elan: I've been at the receiving end of John's "passions" online. Personally I've seen him sleeping in the space, at least twice. Who has seen John sleeping in the space? I was under the impression that he was probably going through something rough. Brennan: John has told people that I'm stealing parts from the Flashin' Toshin' when I was getting pieces for it. Robotics Meetup -- generally unpleasant behavior. There's multiple times when I closed this space and Sam and John were just laying around in the Music Room. It's frustrating when so many people want to bring him back when they were sleeping in the space or lying in it. Mars: People are not denying that he has slept in the space. Shaw: I have slept here for 15 minutes after working all night. Elan: Since 2012 there has been a Rooster Brigade. Jill: John has told me that he has slept in the space. All my interactions with him, he has been very positive. One thing I will say is that I have seen bruises on his body and he has been attacked by someone he is living with. Complex situation going on here. Daniel: I saw John sleeping in the space. Mars: Any other vaping issues? Shah: Personally, there's the thing that happened with Sam, there is what happened with John -- I strongly disagree with banning people without giving them a chance to defend themselves. It seems John was banned after responding negatively towards Sam's 86 and asking about where the bitcoin donation went. Elan: during the Sam thing I was requested to do different things differently transparently. Benjamin: why didn't they want you to go to the community? Elan: With housing, it's important to be sensitive -- I don't want to make something difficult for someone when they're already going through difficulty. I'm curious -- what are broad rules regarding transparency and 86? Mike: John was online and he got bullied a bit, not confronting him in person. Zoda: Are you sure no one confronted him about this. Mike: Did anyone confront him about the issues, the sleeping, the not moving the robotics arm when asked to Elan: About a week ago he was asked to leave, they said to take a week or two to leave the space, he refused and then was found sleeping in the space. Ellen: When I saw John on Saturday, it's hard to hear these arguments against people, especially when there are so many people protecting them and arguing for them. Shah: I do not want this to be anyone's home -- we are a tribe here, especially for people who may not fit so easily in other places, and we should not play favorites here. I'm down for putting my name down for people who are excellent. I think the situation for John is different, is there some way for people to feel like this is all water under the bridge Quinn: 86-process should be transparent Zoda: It's not about John or Sam it's about being excellent. Maybe it's possible that they didn't see the 86 but they were asked to leave a long time before that. Mars: It seemed like, in the case of Sam, people want to discuss the need for the 86. In the case of John, no one contests the facts, he was sleeping in the space. Zoda: (summarizing consensus) Felt need from the community for better communication, around 86. Brennan: in the past, the community had a strong norm, of asking people to leave for a week. It was healthy, understood by community and individual. Take a little breather from the space. It's not the end of the world. I've been pushing for little ATLs for less severe things. Talked to big M members about some of this, no one was stepping up to address this on-going harassment online. This has been an active discussion, we've been grappling with this for months. I know a lot of people who have stopped coming to noisebridge becuase of this. People who ran Circuit Hacking Monday, have stopped coming, have stopped teaching the class because of this. We need to handle this well, and simply and move we can keep making excellent use of the space. Shah: it sounds like the process of 86'ing Sam was relatively by the book. Why was john 86'd. Elan: discovered he was president of the board, someone said, Oh, other people have resigned, Elan is president of the board. Brennan: it's excellent for us to have this conversation. No one is in-charge. We're having the conversations. So many, so many excellent people have stopped coming. Benji: *interruption again* Brennan: we should respect ATL when we are asked. I was asked to ATL once, overuse of electronics room. Wheezy: if you see me with Sam in the space, I'm helping him get stuff out of his locker. If john has not gotten his stuff,

Loren: Mitch Altman was not 86'd. He stopped coming to the space after his *block* for a consensus item was overridden/ignored by the community. Info can be found if you dig. Ellen: It would be nice if people could speak up when they see something wrong. But this cult of being protected, I've seen this for months. This yelling, intimidation, in the space. What are people going to do to me, someone who is not as popular, not as well known, not around for long. Elan: it would be good to communicate better about how 86 are arried out to Elle's point +1, a lot of this could have been avoided, if we could hold each other to account, about rules, more proactievly. Small nudges, help. I'm going to hold myself to: if I see people breaking community standards, I'm going to ask them to leave for an hour. Daniel: tag onto what ellen was saying. I was afraid to speak up. Everytime someone did, they were attacked. I saw Brennan get attacked, working with 10 people on FlaschenTaschen.

Zoda: we're clashing on so much, clearly we need to do more consensus building outside of meetings. Let's have these conversations, get on the same page. I can't get a lot of work done here. It's your responisibiltiy as community members to talk to people, learn what's happening in the space. We're not talking about john anymore.

Matt: (inaudible) big public document, reference things on the wiki. 5 hours, meeting gone on too long. Person designate self for documents? Action item. Update wiki. Ben: Can I have Sam's locker? -> There might be free lockers.


No consensus items raised today.

Discussion 4: Space next door[edit]

We should rent the space nextdoor.

We don't have the resources for it. Can't manage the 2 floors we have.

Discussion 5: Stone, ATL?[edit]

Ken - asked stone to leave. Concerned about ... and about ways he treats the space.

I asked him to leave, he refused.

Wheezy: only people bringing this up. Stone, everyone here should know that you verbally abused Siri (sp), and other people downstairs at the space. Noisebridge is a community, hard for us to take care of other people's romantic problems.

The loudness, aggression that you expressed that day, has continued. Called me a big baby, and insinuated that I should (...?). Last thing to say, asking you right now, in front of everyone to leave the space for a little while.

Stone: there's a lot of accusations here. 3 it sounds like

  • Let's start with: when you wanted to play playstation. I had tidied everything up.

I was sitting for 5 minutes after cleaning. You can in, wanted to play PS. Ok, play. You wanted the chair I was in. Nah, you can sit next to me. You stormed off.

  • Second. Abuse

(wheezy: I'm a survivor. I recognize it) I was * as a child.

Ken: I heard about this story from multiple people. Hearing this would be enough to ask for 86. You wife is the sweetest persion in the space. I trust her. I don't trust you, 99%. Didn't like meeting.

(...): I saw it, it was unacceptable, you shouldn't talk to anyone like that, not in the space. You started treating me like I was your underling and you were my boss.

Zoda: let's take this a little more calmly ...: I was also a victim of emotional & domestic violence. I've also abused others. I didn not understand how to conduct mysel finan effective manner.

Stone: I've been meeting a lot of people.

Why doesn't he like me?

Zoda: being a part of the community, means taking part in these discussions. Stone: Brennan: an anarchist space is unique, and challenging. Have to understand how each person what to do things. Can't just come in a dictate terms. If you can collaborate, take some feedback. Figure out how you want to adjust. As difficult as this place is, you will become more compassionate, more sensitive.

I want you here, because the two of you will contribute well, and benefit from some time to breathe, think. And to adapt to the community.

Stone: what i'm experiencing from this, is there's a lot of people coming, and hearing one side, "oh, I didn't know all of that". It sounds like more than one person is asking me to leave? yes. If I'm being asked to leave over something like that, my wife is very uncomfortable. We're not going to come back. I'm helping a lot of people on their projects right now. If I have to go away, I'm going to move on, I've got other things in my life to do.

Zoda: Heard story of "you accuse me of cheating but look what you're doing" Stone: that's a very accurate description of it. I don't see where there's abuse Zoda: and other reports, in sewing Stone: there's a lot of things we don't need to raise publicly in the space Stone: I would like to talk about this (in private?) Ken: I don't like to be, I've been intimidated, at least twice. (Stone: you called me a nazi) Mark was here to, putting things away. Already asked to disengage. (Stone: john had put away some things) Ken - standing somewhere, and staring (me?) down.

Ken, Shah, Jay

Wife some. Stone: wife accused me of cheating on her. I was here painting all day long. I saw her hugging John. Shah: That is the kind of thing you need to go to a therapist for. It makes it hard to use the space for the things we want to do.

Stone: I don't want to be a part of a community that would ATL over these (minor concerns)

Zoda: ask to leave (ATL) is a very normal thing domestic violence, things like this, are very triggering.

Ellen: ask him if we want to give him resources, for domestic violence, or couples therapy. Asking us to take a deep breath, and 30s of silent before our next thing. Because that was a lot.

Jill?:... ask Stone to leave. Personally very concerned about Siri. ... Brennan: Would not have perferred to do it this way. But his behaviour is concerning

Zoda: domestic violence is tricky, cannot be rash with this. Note: if you are fearing for someones safety, try to contact other people so we can help this person.

Zoda: do we have any contact to Siri?

Jill: Move forward and follow up on this issue

Brennan: These activities are draining, but we lack training to do it effectively

How do we not get burned out constantly ffrom these activities

For JP and Sam, I wish more of his people came in sooner to work on the issues at hand. The help came too late and after the fact. Everyone should be part of the process to make NB better.

Moon: How many witnesses are there in the situation with Stone and Siri arguing.

Zoda: I want to say to Jay, that there exists a formal training on how to desecalate a heated situation. JD strongly supports this training and we should contact him about it

Brennan: To be a shrink it takes time. Can we hire a therapist to run the discussion?

Wheezy: Its not our job to deal with this situation

Brennan: We need to take care of the community

Zoda: where does the buck stop, homelessness, mental health, do we have the resources to handle these issues.

Shaw; Grants for specific things like resources?

Domestic violence counselors are much better trained for these situations

Jill: can we have and after meeting discussion about supporting Siri

Brennan: Siri will have to deal with Stone at home

Wheezy: we cant deal with the problems ppl have at home. We can only deal with Stone here by 86ing him.

Other brief note[edit]

Elan: someone request we announce. A serious incident. (many have never met these people). (ATL also?) no: First, Ask to Disengage). Tony & wife Joy. don't talk to them. If we know them, ...?

End meeting[edit]

5h 36m meeting, ends at 12:37am.