Meeting Notes 2024 03 19

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Date: 2024_03_19

Edit the meeting number above where it says the 755th meeting of Noisebridge

Previous Meeting

Next Meeting

Note-takers: Loren, Zoda, Moon, moof

Moderators: W-ez


Meeting Summary[edit]

TLDR what happened at the meeting:

  • Announcements:
   - new mom system to remind people to take out trash and other things by Paolo
   - new event planning: women book association, May 31st or June 1st, by Elle.
   - reviving Spacebridge - chat with Elan.
   - need volunteers and performers for MAPP - Sat, Apr 6 - chat with Nicole.
   - wood classification class - John wants to host. 
   - show & tell leather work by JD & Elle -  March 30th, sliding donations $10.
   - projects forum recently added in discord for sharing projects and asking for help/volunteers - added by Elan
   - cleaning up the nb wiki to add a single event organizing page lead by zoda
   - funding from stellar foundation to build smart contracts in rust available -- talk to Dana / @nomad7831 for it 
   - potentially new club: nixOS -- by robert 
   - 6th annual dig a hole at ocean beach, this saturday posted #happening - elan
   - 5 mof this thursday, come!! announced by cloud
  • New members:
  • New philantropist:
   - hristo - signed by jd, knows Bikeshop Kelsey and CNC Ben. Approved. 
  • Discussion Items:
   - MAPPS
   - Spring cleaning micro reboot: Saturday, March 30 through Saturday, April 6.
   - Bigger trash bin 
   - Events Guild & Signage
  • Consensus Items:
   - two to block - blocked
   - 86 of Benjiman - not blocked/passed
   - 86 of Fromsa - not blocked/passed

Introductions[edit]

  • Many wonderful hackers!!
  • Wheezy (W-ez) - creator of fall ball
  • zoda - wood, software, and now hacking nb
  • moon - Hardware hacker -> software hacker, hacking noisebridg
  • quinn - like to work on the sewing room sometimes!
  • Elan - wikipedia and spacebridge!
  • Jd - laser stuff
  • John - Woodworking
  • Loren - infra meetup on mondays, talk to me about treasury stuff
  • Christopher Robins - visiting!
  • Cloud - 5mof
  • Moof - Music
  • Dana - Rust stuff, works for a nonprofit that does rusty grants
  • Daniel - visiting from Illinois! Local makerspace is Fox.build!
  • Brandon - Software hacking and recently hardware hacking
  • Paolo - runs laser class when JD doesn't
  • Robert- floating nixos meetup
  • Nicole - old noisebridger, know about the chelsea manning event dana manetiond
  • Brandon - software and recently hardware hacking
  • Elle - sewing hacking and funding

Brief Kudos[edit]

Recent examples of excellent behavior, say 3, unless the passion moves you.

  • Kudos to python class host
  • Kudos to whoever donated label maker
  • Kudos to zoda for being AWESOME community management contributions!!

Short announcements and events[edit]

  • Paolo - "mom" system. "Hey it's mom". Automated reminders off of PA system. https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Things_Mary_Says Also Dana did a version of this recently.
  • Elle - woman book association are interested in having an event in noisebridge. willing to donate their profits. Either 31st of May of 1st of June. Their national meeting.
  • Jd quesiton - will they have licence for selling alcohol? Elle said yes they will!
  • Elan - projects forum on discord to share projects - to ask for contributors and note the people about it. #project-forum
  • Elan - he's reviving spacebridge - the official aviation/space program of Noisebridge!!, will have treasure hunting process that we can use the space.
  • Nicole - MAPP - mappsf.com Mission Arts Performance Project. Nicole. big event, lot of places show off their space. we have done it before. perhaps we can do this?? we need performers! It's Sat, Apr 6 @ 12:00PM / https://mappsf.com/events

(Fb group, page, instagram linked).

  • John - wood classification class he wants to host. Will talk to JD to figure out what he needs for it. He is willing to charge it for sliding donation
  • JD - doing a show and tell for a leatherwork and doing some sort of structured class. Explain what he does, likes, knows, etc. Overview. Happening on the 30th, $10 Skillshare class: Leather. Talk to JD or Elle about it.
  • zoda - want to make a wiki page to help others host events well. reach out if you have ideas, opinions, etc.
  • Dana - stellar foundation to build smart contracts in rust for human rights causes. Posted a bit on our job-board. Contact me on discord. <<, we can bring a rust person to teahc class?? >>
  • Robert - interested in hosting a nixOS meetup. not sure what the next steps are, so came here. Loren wiling to help. Paolo says he can go to wiki and stuff.
  • Elan - 6th annual dig a hole at ocean beach. it's on saturday, posted in the #happenings channel. Come join.
  • Cloud - 5mof, 5 minutes of fame, this Thursday, Mar 21.
    • Talk in #5mof discord, 5mof.net to share with friends. Come show off your projects.

New Members/Associate Members[edit]

What are they? Is anyone trying to become a Member or Associate Member? If not move on. No long discussions.

  • hristo - new philantropist application, jd signed, we all asked question, no objections.
    • Said he would leave the space if asked.
    • Checklist


Discussion Items[edit]

Discussion 1: Mission Arts Performance Project [MAPP][edit]

From/Raised by: Nicole Seeking: performers / event hosts / tour guides On topic:

  • She seems disconnected/not here
  • Follow up on Discord in events-forum forum-channel.


Discussion 2: Spring Cleaning, Micro Reboot[edit]

From/Raised by: Nicole Seeking: decision/outcome/advice/start date/ small concensensus On topic:Saturday, March 30 through Saturday, April 6. TODO list: https://hackmd.io/ckUMUft_QYabyLodyiqRsw

  • Nicole not available, Moon talking.
  • Have done this before.
  • Only open for cleaning
  • Lot of different things we want to do, in the list there. It is on the hackmd linked above.
  • Painting the floor. ADA lines, fire exit, door swing, etc
  • How would this interact with classes?
    • We don't necessarily want to interfere with those.
    • How do we handle events -- zoda will relay this question to her. Brandon and a few others say perhaps we should reach out to others hosting to followup with them to let them know and ask any questions.
  • NOT cleaning the sewing room. They have their own system.

Discussion 3: Bigger trash bin[edit]

From/Raised by: Paolo Seeking: decision/outcome/advice/[?] discussion...and decision. On topic: trash, bigger bins to clean and empty the space

  • Loren - we should get numbers, roughly estimating a $500 monthly i think
    • side comment - need to change credit card
  • Loren - we usually do a dump run. Can we do that?
  • Paolo - that system has been available to us, yet no one does that. not sustainable.
  • Brandon, Ken, Elan say they have done this before and can do this.

E-waste is free. Dump run -- minimum cost $60. They charge, not per bin, but per volume of trash per week. What kind of material? Shop: metal, rubber, laser - wood & acrylic

  • Decision: Discuss after reboot with a massive dump run. Elan says he can help with it. People seems to be hesitant to approve. Perhaps bring specific when reducussing.
  • Spending a little under $350 / mo.

Discussion 4: Events Guild & Signage[edit]

From/Raised by: Moon Seeking: Volunteers On topic:

  • Clear on Events -- events guild. Pre-event safety brief. How to run events
  • Is working on signage, will bring it up later.
  • Event guild - (does what???)
  • Does not have bandwith for it, but wants someone to do that.
  • Nicole - will not be there for the Mapps and moon says he can help.
  • Loren - funny balance point, hard to volunteer others for help.
  • JD - fundraising seems tricky, economy is important, do not want people who use this as a cheap event venue.
  • Elle - eventbrite is important and meetup.
  • Zoda - reminder that he is looking for event guild manager, not fielding concerns. Want to add that I will add a wiki for this process, closest person to a guild rn i guess.
  • Brandon - happy to help with your wiki process.
  • Will talk more once we have the wiki subpage ready. Zoda will prepare it, talk to others to get consensus, and then present it on the meeting.
  • Elle - wanting to emphasize the idea of "event mentor".
  • Trash -- 75% less expensive to use garbage, than recycling and compost.

Excellence[edit]

Our One Rule is to Be Excellent to Each Other. We-z - says it is about being considerate. it is more than the tools. it is a place of community. be excellent. do stuff do-ocratically and check people.

What does that mean? Please see our page on excellence

Anti-Harassment Policy & Community Standards of Excellence[edit]

Noisebridge has an Anti-Harassment Policy https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-Harassment_Policy Everyone is expected to follow the Anti-Harassment Policy, please familiarize yourself with it.) TWO MINUTES MAX More approachable & specific guidelines, https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Community_Standards https://safespace.noisebridge.net/ is one way to quickly raise issues which will be seen by people in Slack.


Guilds[edit]

What is a guild? Interest groups. Space guild, trash guild, event guild.

  • Spacers Guild


Big C Consensus Items[edit]

Nobody likes 3 hour meetings, only explain if new people are present. https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Current_Consensus_Items

Consensus Items [edit]

Only for talking about Big C consensus items, small c consensus items should be discussed with people at the space at the time of the change/new item.

Consensus for 2 member block, for only freeform motions, temporary 3 month effect, renew[edit]

September 5th, 2023 proposed by Mark Renewing May 23rd Consensus Item

REVIEWING as of Feb 27th, 2024 Updating blocking requirement for big C consensus items from 1 to 2 people. Currently in order to block a big C consensus Item, we need only 1 member to block. Would like to update this number to 2 members. Perhaps the 1 member to block made sense when the community was tiny. It doesn't make sense anymore in our much larger community. If you cant convince anyone else to block with you, then maybe you just have bad ideas. The community should not have to make changes only folks with bad ideas think are good. This change would be provisional for 3 months [from Mar 19, 2024]. Also would only apply for member proposed consensus items, non-member proposed consensus items would still be block able by a single member. Also only 1 member would be required to block new membership. Also if any one member would like to block, but cannot because they are alone, they can request a 1 week hold to defer decision for an additional 3rd week. Author of this record: Mark

  • Summary by Loren & by Zoda.
  • We-z - this changes the definition of consensus. I don't think the community
  • Blocked by Loren, want better reasoning, more succinct and clear writing, more community support.

Consensus to 86: Benjamin[edit]

March 12th, 2024 LX Consensus to 86 Benjamin. Recorded by Loren

  • Elan - repealing someone from 86 - should take up the mediation role if we do not want to 86 them. Does not want to do it, just advocating for him.
  • Elle - If there were people working with Benji, there may be a way to find a path forward for him, a path to return. Would like to think there's a path to return for him.
  • Brandon - Do not have the same sympathy for Benji. He has not done anything to show that he can change.

(We-z seconded).

  • Question about mediation / Zoda: Elan - I dont' have the cycles to myself. There's interest in mediation, so Benji does not leave the community in a permanent way. Someone may ask to
    • Where does mediation fall: ATL, 86, mediate now?
  • Return to community after 86 (or similarly during ATL) would be triggered by email to mediation list email address, which posts to slack. A community member would pick this up and facilitate their return
    • Repeat from the 86 process on the wiki.
    • On 6 mo ATL. It would help to have some time pass, so it feel like they're respecting the process.
    • We can do mediation to lessen the 86.
  • Moon: the people here, are all on very different parts of our journey. Trolls in community.
    • Sleeping in the space, sure, clear 86. It seems he's been asked to leave because he.
    • The concern, can't respect an ATL.
  • Cloud - not sure that it should come at the expense of other members.
    • Didn't want to come downstairs, with moof. After seeing the unmitigated yelling at meeting, didn't want to be around for that.
    • This is an intimmidation tactic that people use.
  • He was asked to leave for 6 months.
  • Zoda, I tend to be vocal, point blank, when people are assholes. Others tend not to put themselves in that dangerous situation. We should take it seriously when someone speaks up. We should speak up for others.
    • As W-Ez says, the single rule we have is to be excellent to each others.
  • JD. Want to point out, we could put in a bunch of work to make an, effective 86. We can try to accomodate these people who are push-push-push to not go away.

It was like other folks we had to recently kick out. The circumstances that enable this, cannot hear this behavior.

  • Brandon - listening to feedback, want to change opinion. At minimum, an indefinite ATL. He was notified multiple times that his behavior would lead to an 86. He was told multiple times. Open to indefinite ATL with possibility of a conditional return.
  • Loren - mediation is the way to address this. It sounds like the community needs to rebuild trust. Mediation is the way to address this. I'm not sure who has what concerns. Having a mediator is how we rebuild that trust.

This does feel like, he's be fine, until there's a big issue, and then it's a coin flip whether we make a bunch of other people unwelcome in the community.

  • Zoda - Benjamin is not a physically violent and dangerous person. I want that to be on the record. I'm not a soul-reader, I felt he was being a bully and seemed to enjoy it when I saw it happen. I don't think he is above being physical with people and that sucks. This was honestly incredibly stressful to me. [...] The second point is I'm glad this was done over two meetings. I've been incredibly public with my grievances. I was on the instant 86 train last meeting, I have sinced cooled down. I think 86 is the strongest tool we have and be reserved for people who are safety issues -- people who are dangerous and violent. I believe moon/quinn are proponents and believe he can be redeemed. I want to respect that. I'm willing to rescind my 86 vote in good faith.
  • Elan - Context for new people. ATL and 86 are the only tools the community has to enforce its "Community Standards" and "Anti-harrasment policy". We have a cool space and community.

Other than health participation in a community -

Nicole: I rarely feel safe at the space. I have never met Benji but if I were there and Benji was acting like this in the space I would not feel comfortable.

One of the other things. I would like him to Ask To Leave.

  • Typically for non-safety violations. We ask people to take some time away from the spacec, do better.
  • JD. What's happening? are we seeking an 86?
    • Yes. We are voting on that. If it's blocked, he stays ATL'ed for 6 months.
    • 6 month ask to leave should be minimum.
  • He insisted that Eagle come back immediately at 2 weeks.
  • Brandon - if there is a possibility of him to return. That should only be with Mediation or some other kind of external consultation. Behaviors didn't change. I don't feel like those will change.
  • Twice:
    • it sounds like he would not be around in the space.
    • we're trying to be considerate. It sounds like he has not done that, would not.
  • Zoda:
    • (directing to Moon & Quinn) Like with all do respect.... It seems like you're asking everyone else to sacrifice their safety and comfort in the community, asking you to trust them more than their community and their own experience with this person. Its a huge vote of trust when people do that.

No one likes doing this, no one wants to actually go through this process. Someone violating you is hard to process and do. It's a hard thing we have to do for the community.

It's a big ask to say we want special cases for our friends.

  • Quinn: I would really like to see mediation. A lot of the community has concerns. Benji often puts himself first - such as showing up today and wanting to talk about last week's meeting, so I understand. But I want to say that he was mischaracterized as violent in the last meeting.

He does not realize when he has that energy he can be intimidating especially given his size. I do not feel he is a violent person.

I do not think he should be 86'ed.

  • Ellen: (humming for self) I very much hear, the sense of unease, and should I say fear, that someone who would so misread the rules of engagement of the community, that they would show up, after being asked to leave, and break in to a room of people who don't want him there.

He's a friend of mine, in the sense of friendly via noisebridge. I have seen a friendlier side to him.

Giving folks like him, who have made mistakes, a way of redeeming themselves, is a beautiful thing in building the community. Giving him an opportunity to improve and grow and not giving up on him entirely.

With that said, I won't oppose an 86. I do argue in favor of something. I do argue in favor, as precedent, some way besides expulation, as a way they can build back trust with the community.

  • Zoda: for you two advocating, do you have a way to do. Do you want mediation?
  • Moon: I would volunteer to mediate when the time comes. A lot of my friends have their own issues - not normies.
  • W-Ez: what does normie mean?
  • Moon: Neurotypicals - a lot of folks have a hard time in this world.

I do think he has a moral code, trying to do the things that are right. It'd ...

Elan: particularly for the cases where it's not a safety issue. Well, aggression, some people may not feel safe. I do/would like to think that we are a community, have a way back.

If someone went through the process, put in the work, we'd be receptive to them coming back.

Twice: You are currently (in this meeting) letting yourself be burned out by Noisebridge drama. NB should be a place where you are enriched, not dragged out by noisebridge drama.

Brandon - to Moon, it sounds like your life experiences are different, touch (many? tough) communities. Not everyone at nb has had the same trauma. Residual effects will be very different from their perspective. Not the first time you brought up ur experience, and be open to explore others experiences.

Moon: I definitely understand every one else's experience. I think someone should speak to the other side

Brandon: Playing devil's advocate can be fun. It seems there's a lot of clear evidence this person's behavior is not fit for noisebridge.

Nick (irl) - cede.

Zoda: this whole comment of I want to extend compassion to the person being 86'd. Don't forget to extend compassion to all of the other people in the space who dont feel safe around him.

Does anyone block on the consensus item? No one blocks.

(The standard of blocking is -- would leave the community over.) (Or if you think noisebridge would end a community over.)

Zoda, Moon, Quinn: 86 should be resolved for someone who is a bigger danger to the community.

Twice / Brandon: I'm not against.

Nicole - we are using the energy on these problematic people versus great hackers. Our finances are not great, and we want to keep the community.

Cloud: Watching your friends go through this. The yelling, the verbal abuse. Even I felt the distress, watching from

Do we have to call police, are we going to be ok here?

Moon: does the punishment fit the crime? Loren: it's not punishment, this is a decision to protect the community.

Ellen: Friends of benji do not need to be answerable for their opinions.

David: I've been around for a long time. I've put my blood, sweat and tears into it. If there's someone who's making someone uncomfortable, away.

I've tried to stay out of drama, all the noisebrige drama. It echoes and affects the coomunity very deeply.

Moon: nobody is saying he should get off the hook, or not be asked to leave. I'm not a member not in a position to block.

W-Ez: Motion: do any big members block the 86 of Benji from noisebridge? It seems like no body is blocking. He get's 86ed.

One more aspect. Benji is very concerned about what that says. "it being unexcellent" (There was another thing something said online.

Moon, it's nice, easy.

Twice, can update the 86 page, if you know the words that you want up. We should describe a behavior, so the reciprocal ban lists.


Consensus to 86: Fromsa[edit]

March 12th, 2024 LX Consensus to 86 Fromsa. Recorded by Loren We-z: He is ATL'ed for 6 months, came to the space twice. Once he was unaware bc of my unclear wording. Second time, it was just now. We talked about it. He had objected for a bit, talked for a long time, and then left again.

Zoda: Don't know of him being violent, not seriously physically aggressive. Off the record he is an asshole. But he is unapollogetically physically intimdating and vocally aggressive. He doesn't respect the rules of the space, absolutely wishes to undermine what this place is. I do think the 86 page should be for people who are actually dangerous. Wouldn't vote, but also wouldnt block for him.

David: I've seen him being creative in the space. I've seen him in meeting, expressing concerning things, "we should change the meeting" "we should not kick people out" It seems like he isn't willing to participate within the bounds of the community.

Elle: I have been the brunt of a lot of Framsa's rudeness. Was not a good idea. He has been extremely rude to me. He has had it hard and reflects it in the way he interacts with people. I feel he can be reached. Support a return given interventions by others outside of the space. Zoda: are you willing to do that Elle? Elle: I don't think he'd be willing to engage in that with me. If he's willing to listen to me.

Elan: I've had similar interactions. A lot of his friction with the space (interpersonal rudeness, not t). He may have been introduced to the space differently. The lawless version of noisebridge - rather than the "Many rules, no rulers" version of Noisebridge. Definitely agree, very creative individual. I can't abide us using that as a standard for whether to enforce our community standards/anti-harassment policy. We need to enforce our rules consistently.

Coming back from a 3 month time away from the space. (* on my own terms, burnout, not ask to leave).

Loren: my standard is: Clear and present obstruction to the community functioning?

Cloud: Like are we going to be scared to come back to the meetings because someone is yelling at the door?

Brandon: From my and other's interactions, it does not seem like this is someone who is likely to change their behaviors. I think it would be to the detriment of noisebridge to keep having them as part of the community.

David: I'm an optimist, I think there's hope for everybody. Agree with Elan, it might've been the way he was introduced. Newcombers saying this is a place of anarchy. This undercuts the whole culture, the effort that goes into it, the way the community is run.

W-Ez: he's been asked to leave for 6 months.

Elan: it seems like there are people willing to mediate for a return. Ellen. Maybe David. Could we communicate this -- mediation willingness. Regardless of our Zoda: same as benji. Antisocial anarchist beliefs. Will not consider others feelings. People want to advocate for him. Some definitely do not want him and do not entertain it. Elan: Can we communicate that there are people who want to see your return and are willing to mediate your return after 6 months? Yes - Ellen and David. Loren: David: if someone is able, willing to go through the steps to get back in the community, they deserve a change. Loren: It both cases it seems like there's willingness to do that. Brandon asked about the funding of the event. Brandon - not convinced he will be a good contribution to the space. Loren - Seemed like he wanted to do everything by the book for the event. He was trying but perhaps there was a lot over his head. It's hard to be obviously behaving well for a whole community. I dont have concerns of the event. Elan - He was trying to be good with the processes. Was trying to respect the ATL. Was trying to be good.

W-Ez: he chose to engage in the meetings, to "throw down" with the meeting. He would've been involved a long time.

Jd - Struggling to decide whether to block the 86 or not. I sponsored him. He does cool stuff. I think I have faith. I feel strongly that he could be good for the space. I probably wont block.

David: Separation maes the heart grow fonder. has 6 months to think about this. Can come back and 86 him then. He does amazing work and I think 6 months is a reason

Elan: I see the differences between ATL for 6mo, versus 86. Can come back by default, or arrange for mediation. Because these are not the more extreme examples for 86, it would be nice to see the mediation process work for this. Some of his behavior goes beyond being a d*ck, he made people feel unsafe. At least one of his interactions, made 2 long-term, dues-paying members say, "I'm leaving the community and not coming back". If this weren't an 86, I would like to see them wander off in.

Loren: Yes. Use mediation.

Brandon: mediation. How does process work, Elan? Lots of other people tried to engage individually. JD, Mark, ..., it. Who should engage mediation and when? How does the public engagement with mediaiton work? Where's the threshold exist.

Loren: ATL default expires. It seems like people think these issues could be resolvable.

Elan: After 6 months, the individual would have to engage the process.


Brandon: trying to ensure we've done due process, that we've done everything we can before, up to now. W-Ez: I have Zoda: Many people have tried talking to him.

Zoda: asking for a special case, means asking for other's concerns to be overridden.

W-Ez: Is anyone blocking? Fromsa is not a good fit for noisebridge. No one blocks the motion to 86 fromsa.


There's a distinction, it's not "has been rude to me". It's "prevents the community from working, together".